No more liner / frame locks for me !

chambelona59 said:
I came across this video after I initially had a little bit of interest in this knife a month ago.
Here's a folding knife that is touted to be so "tough and strong" that it's both issued to and used by Israeli Special Forces.
(not made in Israel either)

At about 1:25 into the video... in the upper left box of the screen, the Op gives the knife several strong downward strikes on the top edge of the opened metal car door, if you look closely... you can plainly see the lock completely fail on strikes 3 and 4.
I don't believe that's an "optical illusion".
And they left that in the video.

[video=youtube_share;3NV-jfh7ezI]http://youtu.be/3NV-jfh7ezI[/video]
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I have this Isak and it's a crap !!!
I can send one for you tomorrow if you want to buy one
( I live in Israel )
Ther is going to be a better one in few months as far as I know
 
If you cut into wood hard, as in bend cutting saplings or heavy carving, it is possible to get the blade stuck in the wood more or less in line with or just off angle from the grain.

Getting the knife out then requires both a twisting action and a rocking action, both of which can damage weak joints and cause most locking mechanisms to fail suddenly in what I call a Gomer Pyle failure as in, "Surprise, surprise, surprise!"

It should be emphasized that as soon as any twisting is involved and if the knife is fouled with dirt, sand or debris from field use, this can happen with lower force than a straight lab test would indicate.

The only folder I trust in this situation is the Opinel Vibroloc. It's function can't be compromised by dirt or sand (the lock ring will grind but will still lock up) and twisting will not deform the lock mechanism. The Opinel does have 2 important limitations that need to be heeded. The lock can pop off under huge forces, so one needs to not be stupid. Also, if you haven't tuned the lockring for a good snug fit, it's possible for the lock ring to work it's way loose and disengage. But unlike other locks, the status of the lock can easily be verified by keeping your thumb on the lock. If you need to torque on the knife, just double check the status of the ring before proceeding.


Getting acquainted by Pinnah, on Flickr

Opinel won't satisfy the super steel requirement. But, the 12C27 Inox is tempered up in the 59Rc range. Fine for EDC use if you don't mind touching up your blades.

Obviously, there's a very, very, very strong case to be made for getting a decent 3"-4" fixed blade.
 
R.G said:
After my spyderco tuff frame lock fail on me as I pulled it out from a wood log when I was out in the woods with my kid I finished with the frame locks / liner locks folders.
back locks , triad locks , axis locks , compression lock ???
I need good recommendation for a tuff folder with tuff steel , heavy duty lock and good wear resistance ( not aus8 )
It doesn't have to be stainless but I don't want it to rust just by looking at it for 5 min ( like o1 steel )
The adamas for example had side to side play after 2 months of use ( bike trips , 4x4 ...), but after my injury I look back for it and I think I can live with side play and no lock failure
thanks for your opinions / recommendations
Ron
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What!? I carried mine for 6 months. Biking, riding my motorcycle, dropping it, hunting, trapping, 4-wheeling, chopping small trees, etc. I use it hard. The thing is a bank vault.
There should be NO PLAY whatsoever. Adjust the pivot screw. It will take a while to find the perfect spot, but it's there.
 
"I have this Isak and it's a crap !!!
I can send one for you tomorrow if you want to buy one
( I live in Israel )
Ther is going to be a better one in few months as far as I know "
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer R.G but no thanks, will stick with my Doug Ritter full size and Mini Griptilian's. :D
Shalom.
 
ToddM said:
I always think it's interesting that whenever a liner lock fails, the poster is automatically jumped on for abusing the knife and not understanding the weaknesses of the liner lock. Manufacturers continually tell us how strong, sturdy, and safe their liner locks are and yet when people actually use them hard and they fail it's knife abuse, user error, liner locks are weak, etc.. I get that you should understand the weakness of your tool, and a liner lock if stuck in something and twisted to pull it out is asking for the lock to slip, but perhaps that should be motivation enough to build a BETTER lock and improve the tool.
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I like the way you think. I have been happy using a couple tri-ad folders harder than hard for a couple years now and older more traditional lock-backs before that. I've had several posts and threads on here about liner-locks and frame-locks discussing why I'd rather not use one.

Doing typical "outdoorsy" type stuff doesn't quickly dull AUS8 by any means.
 
R.G said:
After my spyderco tuff frame lock fail on me as I pulled it out from a wood log when I was out in the woods with my kid I finished with the frame locks / liner locks folders.
back locks , triad locks , axis locks , compression lock ???
I need good recommendation for a tuff folder with tuff steel , heavy duty lock and good wear resistance ( not aus8 )
It doesn't have to be stainless but I don't want it to rust just by looking at it for 5 min ( like o1 steel )
The adamas for example had side to side play after 2 months of use ( bike trips , 4x4 ...), but after my injury I look back for it and I think I can live with side play and no lock failure
thanks for your opinions / recommendations
Ron
Click to expand...

Sorry about the injury, you are not the first to have a lock failure on a tuff, and I haven't read throught the pages on this thread so if Im repeating something apologies, but First , I would send the tuff back get it fixed and if you want to keep it keep it , if not sell it, As far as the adamas, benchmade has a YT channel and on there they break the Adamas, it has the strongest AXIS lock IIRC of any benchmade, so you should be o.k. However no folder is going to be 100% safe, I trust mostly the Axis lock , and Tri ad lock, I have only had one complete lock failure on one knife and it was a liner lock. People have a misconception that framelocks are super strong and will not fail, well yea you may have a thick slab of titanium but look at the cut out, ever framelock has this, that is how strong your framelock is, at that weakest point where it is thinner than most liner locks, The old saying goes a chain is only as solid as it's weakest link applies to framelocks as well, they are only as strong as that little cut out is...
 
I will say I really do not care for the Steel lock bar inserts on many of todays framelocks.

It decreases the surface area that titanium frame lock would grab and the few I looked have a different geometry. I compare my 0561 with just titanium . With a co workers 0777 I believe. And that 0777 may as well be a linerlock. It does not engage nearly as secure and say my ZT or most ti locks that I see.
 
coldsteelrocks said:
I will say I really do not care for the Steel lock bar inserts on many of todays framelocks.

It decreases the surface area that titanium frame lock would grab and the few I looked have a different geometry. I compare my 0561 with just titanium . With a co workers 0777 I believe. And that 0777 may as well be a linerlock. It does not engage nearly as secure and say my ZT or most ti locks that I see.
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This is the lockbar on my ZT 0777 and it's made so the steel insert is the same size as the rest of the lock bar. If there wasn't a steel insert it would still be the same size. No properly working frame lock graps the blade's surface area, if it does your lock is sticky. That's why people use sharpie. or pencil lead, to keep it from sticking. I've seen all Ti locks so bad I couldn't hardy get them unlocked. After putting pencil lead on the blade's contact point with the lock bar and opening a few 100 times, they free up just fine.

9hkp79.jpg
 
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Being old, I have noticed a couple of things in life. One of them is that some people, for whatever reason, seem to have really bad luck with knives, guns, bicycles, whatever. They experience multiple failures. Most other people seem to use these items without serious problems. One of life's great mysteries.
 
Locutus D'Borg said:
Being old, I have noticed a couple of things in life. One of them is that some people, for whatever reason, seem to have really bad luck with knives, guns, bicycles, whatever. They experience multiple failures. Most other people seem to use these items without serious problems. One of life's great mysteries.
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I'm convinced the OP had the knife in a hard grip, left handed, stuck in wood, twisted it, causing the meaty part of his palm to push the lock bar into unlocked and the knife came free swinging the blade closed on his finger. He just should have been aware of what could happen and how the lock works. I did the same deal, only with a lock back, I was prying the tip into wood and my hand managed to depress the lock and the blade closed. Believe me it got my attention and I pay attention now to how I'm using locking folders. I was 12 years old then and I haven't cut myself badly since, despite using locking folders everyday.
 
jill jackson said:
This is the lockbar on my ZT 0777 and it's made so the steel insert is the same size as the rest of the lock bar. If there wasn't a steel insert it would still be the same size. No properly working frame lock graps the blade's surface area, if it does your lock is sticky. That's why people use sharpie. or pencil lead, to keep it from sticking. I've seen all Ti locks so bad I couldn't hardy get them unlocked. After putting pencil lead on the blade's contact point with the lock bar and opening a few 100 times, they free up just fine.

9hkp79.jpg
Click to expand...

Mine does not stick at all, I guess its preference. But thanks for the pic, I retract my statement, Yours looks perfect. I guess my experience was with just those knives as Ive not owned them.
Thanks
 
Allen R. said:
how strong your framelock is, at that weakest point where it is thinner than most liner locks
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The cut-out on the Tuff is 0.054" thick.
Far thicker than many cut-outs, and as thick as the vast majority of liner locks. :)
 
The reason they went with steel inserts was because ti is softer than steel, and when contacting steel wears faster. People complained about that and now they are complaining about the steel inserts. I have frame-locks both ways and they are my favorites in either style.
 
Locutus D'Borg said:
Being old, I have noticed a couple of things in life. One of them is that some people, for whatever reason, seem to have really bad luck with knives, guns, bicycles, whatever. They experience multiple failures. Most other people seem to use these items without serious problems. One of life's great mysteries.
Click to expand...

jill jackson said:
I'm convinced the OP had the knife in a hard grip, left handed, stuck in wood, twisted it, causing the meaty part of his palm to push the lock bar into unlocked and the knife came free swinging the blade closed on his finger. He just should have been aware of what could happen and how the lock works. I did the same deal, only with a lock back, I was prying the tip into wood and my hand managed to depress the lock and the blade closed. Believe me it got my attention and I pay attention now to how I'm using locking folders. I was 12 years old then and I haven't cut myself badly since, despite using locking folders everyday.
Click to expand...

I think you are both saying the same thing in different ways.

When I used to work as a bike mechanic, we would notice that some customers were repeat offenders, especially on wheels. "He just rides heavy" is how we would describe it.
 
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