No Shields

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Phill,

That is true. Thanks for stating it that way. That is how I think of it but could not put it into words!
Mark
 
philllll said:
How is that a "safe bet"? They are getting rid of the shields on stag knives because Bill thinks they look ugly, not because they are trying to cut corners.
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In his statement Bill says that he personally inspects each stag knife that comes into inspection. So, over the years Bill has checked and given his approval to thousands of stag knives with shields. Then he has to work the line for a little while and sees how hard and costly it is to affix the shields. After that experience he decides that the shields are an ugly eyesore. Now we're to believe that this was a purely aesthetic decision that had nothing to do with cost savings?
 
It bears considering, too, that the "Un-X-ld" shield is what we will be "losing," and it is hard to argue against the fact that, as shields go, this one is definitely one of the more "ugly billboard" styles. I think we lose something by the change, but we lose far less than if all the stag shields were of the more elegant type, say, from the 2014 Bladeforums knife. GEC is known for many things, but I don't think, for most people, that "timeless elegance of their shields," is one. And the SFOs, which are usually prettier knives anyway, will still have shields on stag if the originator wishes it. So, as changes go, I don't think this is a big one.
 
Cory Hess said:
In his statement Bill says that he personally inspects each stag knife that comes into inspection. So, over the years Bill has checked and given his approval to thousands of stag knives with shields. Then he has to work the line for a little while and sees how hard and costly it is to affix the shields. After that experience he decides that the shields are an ugly eyesore. Now we're to believe that this was a purely aesthetic decision that had nothing to do with cost savings?
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Do you honestly believe that in 40 years as a Cutler that is the first time Bill Howard ever inlet shields?
 
rma100 said:
Do you honestly believe that in 40 years as a Cutler that is the first time Bill Howard ever inlet shields?
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I honestly have no idea what the man has or has not done. I'm purely going off of the statement that he released. His statement says that the process "seemed ridiculous" to him. The fact that he was using processes for the last nine years that he found ridiculous would indicate that he wasn't as familiar with them as he ought to be. He's saying that he's come to the realization that he's been charging significantly more for an inferior product, in his own estimation. Whether you believe this or that they've decided to cut corners, it's not good news either way.

The fact is, this has all gotten way off point. The question isn't the inspiration for the move, but the move itself and how it affects the knives that GEC produces. A knife without a shield is of a lower quality than a knife with an expertly inlaid shield in my mind. The fact that a manufacturer has recognized that they have a limitation in this regard and has chosen to give up even trying to inlay shields in stag is a disappointment to me.

Is it enough to get me to pass on future GEC knives in stag? Probably. I've already decided that I won't accept a knife that they couldn't be bothered to get the pins flush on. This means that I've already written off most of their offerings. Sawcut bone, some stag, and some wood offerings are all I've been looking at lately. I have no interest in the 47 frame, so this hasn't affected my decision on that run. I'll have to see how future runs come out and make the decision on a frame by frame basis. I can't imagine that it'll increase my interest in their knives. It seems that some others will be more interested in their stag now, though I'm guessing that these people are mostly the fans that would fawn over anything they put out whether it had a shield or not.

My best guess is that they were seeing a decrease in stag knives being ordered by their dealers on account of stag usually being the last to sell out. They made the decision that they could offer the stag at a lower price if they left the shields off. The hope here is that the decrease in price will improve the number of stag knives being ordered, thereby improving their bottom line. Hopefully, these lower priced knives don't sit on the dealer's shelves as long. Then dealers can increase their orders of stag without greatly increasing their overhead, and everybody wins. Everybody except the people that are looking for expert craftsmanship. They are having to lower their standards a notch, as they aren't going to find much better than GEC. So, GEC lowering their standards a notch means that we must all follow suit unless we want to go custom. This isn't a crime against humanity, but likewise I don't see it as something to be celebrated.
 
Cory, I think your are assuming too much. The way I interpret it is.... "We've been doing this for quite awhile and I have decided that it really doesn't enhance the knife." People can do something for a long time and eventually change their minds about it. I know I have changed my mind about a lot of things in the last 20 years or so.

Cutting corners? I don't think so.... that implies sacrificing quality. The quality of the knife will be the same, just the aesthetics will be different. It's like saying the quality between Tidiuoute and Northfield are different.... they aren't, but the aesthetics are.
 
Steve, thank you for your post. I think it really cuts to the heart of the matter. Somebody can come on and post that they're a big fan of GEC. They can say that the knives are improving over time, and that the last couple knives they've received from GEC are their best yet. They can say that GEC is pushing the standard forward as to the quality we can expect out of a production knife. But, the second that they question anything that GEC or Bill Howard does they're seen as somebody that hates GEC and wants them to fail. It's an attitude that stymies honest conversation and is a hindrance to the goals of this forum. Either your a fanboy or a hater, one of them or one of us. I don't see why it has to be that way, but it's a popular point of view in some parts.

Woodrow, I don't think I'm assuming anything. I'm reading what Bill wrote and trying to read between the lines to get to the truth. I might be right or I might be wrong. I'm OK with either, and haven't tried to present anything I've said as fact. These are just my interpretations of what Bill wrote. People, including myself, change their minds all the time. It's how progress is made. For example, GEC recently changed their minds about how much effort to put into sharpening their knives and it's been a major improvement. In this case I don't think it is.

I do think that sacrificing the shield on a stag knife does sacrifice the quality. One of the qualities I value most in a traditional slipjoint is the level of craftsmanship that goes into it. Likewise, the appeal of well done stag is in the skill of the cutler in selecting, matching, and hafting the material as well as the placement of the shield. By lowering the level of craftsmanship by eliminating elements that require it, the quality of the knife decreases. We've seen beautiful Lloyds and Bose knives where the lines of the stag followed the lines of the knives. Does this not imply a certain level of craftmanship, thereby improving the quality of the knife? It's a purely aesthetic aspect, but it still affects the quality in my eyes. When you hit a certain level quality is no longer gauged solely on function, but also on aesthetics. In my mind GEC is far beyond that cutoff. Others may not feel the same way.
 
I suspect that the "biggest" market for GEC knives is the "collector" market as opposed to the pure users. If using were the only criteria, then there are any number of much cheaper alternatives coming out of China. IMHO, collectors tend to be more appreciative of the aesthetics and appearance than of the ultimate usability of the piece and are willing to pay for it. If indeed the aesthetics are improved via shield removal then so be it. If the potential sales are impacted versus the cost savings, the decision is still determined by the bottom line.
 
revmic said:
I suspect that the "biggest" market for GEC knives is the "collector" market as opposed to the pure users.
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I don't know. I would say that the two aren't mutually exclusive, and that their biggest market is a combination of the two: collectors who use the knives they collect. That certainly seems to be what you see most around here, at least. I like "collecting" knives, and I have more than any one person should ever need (and far less than some other people here ;)), but with a very few exceptions, I don't personally like to hang onto a knife that I won't carry/use. I know there are people who collect knives and keep them in pristine condition and don't use them, and there's nothing wrong with that… but I feel like I see a lot more users than safe queens posted here.
 
Here's a nutty idea. Why don't we just wait to see what the new knives look like? Then, if you like them, you buy one (or twenty). If you don't like them, you don't. Vote with your wallet.
 
Stag with shield can be staggering..that's my line

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The issue here is perhaps bigger than "if you like them...". Those of us who recall the demise of Case knives as they adjusted their product to accommodate the "bottom line" are uneasy when we witness what just might signal a similar "first step" w.r.t. GEC. Traditional knives are more than any particular pattern. They represent a product ideal that exhumes a sense of craftsmanship and agreement with the past. GEC has been and is a breath of fresh air in a marketplace that is presently characterized by computerized and machine dominated builds. The possibility that might change as they bow to economic pressure is disconcerting.
 
Think of it like this: there mark and pile side, if you don't like the mark turn it over and contemplate the pile. But pile and pile gives no such option....that's the improved future. It aint pretty.
 
Rockon75 said:
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"Methinks thou dost protest too much."

Bill Howard has valid reasons for eliminating shields on stag covers, but this letter feels very much like a marketing move calculated to put a positive spin on things. Sort of like Ivory's "99% Pure It Floats" campaign.
 
Thomason said:
This Tim Britton needs a big honking' Federal Shield like a fish needs a bicycle. :D

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/Thom_1949/Screen Shot 2016-01-22 at 2.40.09 PM.png
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I'm not sure that customs are really relevant since it would not be practical for a company to give each knife the same amount of individual attention during manufacturing. But Ryuichi Kawamura uses shields and is well known for some of the best stag covers.

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Here's a GEC knife that I think was done really well.

 
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