No Toilet ! Now what do I do?

C

coote

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Apr 3, 2006
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I've just finished reading The Humanure Handbook.

What a great book.... and I really appreciate what the author is doing to get us to think about the nutrients we waste and the problems we cause when we flush our digested food down the gurgler.

The simple sawdust (or leaf mould) toilets described in the book would be a simple toilet solution for a wilderness cabin... or for anywhere when the sewer systems aren't working properly.

I guess many of us here already know about DIY composting toilets, but for anyone who doesn't know much about them, here is the link to the Humanure Site
 
As long as we're talking about poop (well, one person is talking about poop), I'd like to point out the great advantage of the Indian wiping method. Simply put, it's your left hand and some water...no paper involved.

This is beyond comprehension for many, but that's just because we're not used to it. It has many advantages. Mainly, it's much more hygienic, it's infinitely less damaging to the delicate tissue being cleaned, and it doesn't consume TP, which is energy intensive to produce, distribute, and dispose of.

More hygienic you say? Yup. For one thing, the TP that's supposedly insulating your hand from your Klingons is both very porous and rather thin. If you think it's keeping the bacteria away from your hand, it's not. Secondly, imagine you had a smear of shit on your arm. Would you wipe it off with a piece of TP and call it good, or would you wash it with some water? At the risk of being accused of not being able to tell my ass from my arm, I fail to see a lot of difference from a hygienic standpoint.

Since we're all washing our hands after defecating (we are, aren't we?), and since the TP really isn't protecting our hands from anything other than a misplaced sensibility, the Indian method wins hands down. He he he. Good pun, eh?

Just trying to save the world, one dump at a time.
 
^^ Best post ive read in a while, although not very relevant. He's obviously put a lot of thought into his decision not to use tp.
 
Thanks for that wonderful bit of imagery Sutured. And what you say makes good sense. I haven't weaned myself from toilet paper totally yet. But when I'm out in the bush I might use leaves. And i've been known to use your method on occasions.

I'm sure you're right about TP not working as well as water... and about TP not being an effective barrier.

A trained gremlin could be the answer, though, for people who don't want to use TP... and who aren't all that comfortable with the wet hand method.
 
coote said:
I guess many of us here already know about DIY composting toilets, but for anyone who doesn't know much about them, here is the link to the Humanure Site
Click to expand...

This is an interesting site. I have always read that human and animal waste is not suitable for use with food crops but for ornamental plants only. I am going to do a little more reading on this and may even build a composting toilet. It seems like it would be a useful setup at our little getaway cabin, since it has no inside running water.
Thanks again,I appreciate the link to this info.

I don't know that I'm ready for the Indian wiping yet. That is some hardcore $hit, for real.
I guess I have to look at it like this. If I am going out of my way to not step in it, I'm going to have to at least try to go a little farther to keep my hands out of it.
 
Cholera is an acute diarrhoeal illness caused by toxigenic strains of Vibrio cholerae serogroups O1 and O139. Presently, V. cholerae O1 belonging to the El Tor biotype is the most common serogroup in India, while the frequency of serogroup O139 has declined considerably over the past few years. When analysed by 5-year periods, the incidence of cholera and the absolute number of deaths from the disease have increased steadily since the beginning of the millennium. Whereas a cumulative total of 838 315 cases had been notified to the World Health Organization (WHO) for the period 2004 to 2008, 676 651 cases were reported from 2000 to 2004. This represents a 24% increase in the number of cases reported with respect to the previous 5-year period (2000–2004).1 However, the estimated actual burden of cholera is in the vicinity of 3 to 5 million cases and 100 000 to 130 000 deaths per year
Click to expand...

Yepper. Let's emulate the methods of India.
 
I'm convinced that it is perfectly OK to spread well-aged composted crap around edible plants.

Even if the manure hasn't been hot-composted (which will kill pathogens and worm eggs), these things die over time.

And when I look around my vegetable garden, there is nearly always a selection of fresh manure recently deposited by our dog, or cats, hedgehogs or birds. Composted manure has to be heaps safer than the fresh wild stuff.

I've had dogs for many years, and I do a lot of hunting. Some of the pigs I get are fairly dirty, yet I'll carry them home over my shoulders. I'd be very surprised if I hadn't carried hundreds of undesirable organisms, eggs and spores home... yet my family has never caught anything nasty.

I should also mention that we sometimes stay in a remote area where we drink water straight from a stream that flows though country that wild animals wander around in. Never had a problem with that either.

If the composted manure is your own... and you already know you are healthy.... then I consider that the risks of putting it around our edible plants are nothing to worry about if you practice common sense hygiene.

A simple sawdust/bucket toilet strikes me as the ideal answer for a cabin.
 
Codger_64 said:
Yepper. Let's emulate the methods of India.
Click to expand...

Cholera is a disease spread by an inadequate separation of infected feces with food or, more commonly, water. It has nothing to do with how you wipe your arse. You cannot infect yourself with cholera. If you wash your hands after defecating you're no more likely to spread cholera or any other fecal-oral disease if you wipe with your hand or a piece of tissue. Not to be rude, but get your facts straight!

And for the record, I don't care how you chose to wipe your arse. I'm just pointing out some facts.
 
I just noticed your post thanks Codger.

I'm no expert on turd-borne diseases, but I have the idea that one of the likeliest ways to catch cholera is from contaminated water. And water can be contaminated by faulty sewage systems... or from the leaching of pit toilets into the water table. And I guess that washing your posterior in a river could also contribute to the problem, and I bet a few of the locals do exactly that. So it would be best to wash away from a river so that the waste water can combine with the soil. Similarly, it is best if all washing water - no matter what has been washed - is tipped on to the soil well away from any stream. It bugs me when people tip dirty water into a river, or worse still... when they use a river as a toilet.

The composting toilet - where the product is covered with sawdust or leaf mould or whatever - involves no flushing and the sewage is treated on the spot.
 
All I know is that one of those little Kleenex packs that grannies usually carry, is 50x better than wiping the hoop with half frozen snow covered field grass.
 
Here here upnorth! A roll of paper towels goes a long way too. Leaves suck. Been there. Indian method, been there. I would rather use newspaper anytime to leaves. Dip your butt in a stream or big puddle. You just need water. 5-gallon buckett works well. Use, dump in a hole appropriately located, and rinse.
 
Hey, this post is making me reread Winnie the Pooh and his persistent fascination and collecting of honey pots is in question now. Seriously, in colder northern areas like MN the composting season is five or six months tops so I don't see this as a great option for a family of four in cooler climes. As far as saving the planet, that seems more than melodramatic for human fecal management systems. So much of this system depends on obtaining truck loads of suitable high carbon lignins and cellulose like sawdust or crop residue. What about the overharvesting of trees in so much of the world where this concept could have a use? Not to mention the time and labor of hauling your straw and sawdust(or equivalent substrate). Market farms in outlying areas of Hong Kong have use 'nightwastes' probably since time began but e-coli dysentery is an ever present risk there I am told. The market for organic veggies can be good but as soon as 'human manure' gets associated I bet you would have a hard time giving it away.
 
I'm not a civil engineer, and I certainly am not an expert on sewage treatment. However I believe that composting toilets are a pretty good option compared to taking a dump behind the house, or in a long-drop... or flushing it raw into the ocean. The use of sawdust is just one option among many when it comes to composting. The stuff will eventually decompose all by itself. And other things can be substituted for sawdust... rice hulls, leaf litter, shredded newsprint, peat moss etc if you want the 'dump then bury' system.

In my part of the world where there is a lot of sawmilling, there is also plenty of sawdust. If there was no sawdust there is plenty else that people could use.

Certainly for a wilderness cabin, or in an emergency in a built up area, 'tis far better to squeeze out the icing bag into a bucket then cover it with sawdust rather than to poop in a ziplock bag and discard it somewhere.

We have two flush toilets in our home and we still use them. But it does seem odd to drop a load of excrement into clean water, and then to flush it out of sight using a couple more gallons of precious clean water.

I agree that some folks might not like the idea of eating vegies that have grown on soil enriched with human dung. The thought doesn't particularly appeal to me either. If I was to eat such stuff knowingly, I'd like to think that the farmer was the responsible type that followed all the precautions. I'd have no hesitation to use my own composted manure and household waste in my garden because my family is totally healthy already, plus I'd take all necessary care. So I think it is fine for people to do their own thing in their own yard or mountain cabin.

I've never really felt good about handling poop. But dang I got a lot more used to it after raising three kids.

I dunno how you'd get around composting this stuff in a cold climate. I'm sure everything would rot and become safe eventually, but maybe not as quick as it might in a more temperate place. The composting of humanure can create its own heat. I think that it is not unusual for a pile to reach maybe 55 degrees Celcius (say 130 F).

I checked out the cholera topic. According to one source, the cholera bug can last a few days on coins or glass... and maybe two months in soil. So if manure is left to rot well away from where it might leach into the water table, it should become relatively safe over time.

If we never defecated, there would be no problem getting rid of the stuff :rolleyes:
 
They say that human manure or compost made from human fecal matter is not a problem for crops or vegetables that grow above the ground as opposed to root crops like potatoes and so forth. What do you think sewage treatment plants do with the sludge that builds up? It gets spread on fields, usually grain crop growing fields.
 
hhmmm so lets see ,,joe blow is going about his business wiping with his left hand ? ok so far,,,then he goes around grabbing and touching things like door knobs and such with same left hand? then you come around using your right hand to grab same things? Ill stick to tp and hope that everyones else is doing the same thing. I mean surely some things do get touched with their left hands that shouldn't.
 
Hopefully Joe Blow will wash both his hands after, err, cleaning up. I think that even when people use toilet tissue, there is still a strong possibility that they will end up with a few gut bacteria on their hand. Chances are that there will be a few little organisms clinging to the butt exterior where part of your hand might brush past. And then there are those horrible occasions when the toilet paper rips asunder and your fingers go where you hadn't intended.

I've observed people leaving a toilet area without washing their hands. I guess that is none of my business unless they work in food factories or in the kitchens of restaurants I might dine at.

I can't recall the exact details now... but when I worked in a big fish-processing plant some tests were done for bacteria. I was surprised to learn that some unpleasant ones were found on the rolls of toilet paper sitting on the dispenser.

I guess I've wandered away from the 'wilderness skills' theme here. So to get back on track I can list these bullet points:
-A simple composting toilet (using sawdust or leaf litter) could be an ideal toilet solution in a wilderness cabin or in emergency situations.
-Common sense hygiene is important in the city or in the bush (hand washing)
-Toilet paper is optional
-It is not good to relieve oneself near a pond or stream, and it is best if washing water doesn't get returned directly to a stream (tricky and inconvenient as that may be).
-Now I know why we 'shake hands' with our right hand
 
I'm a righty for all these daily chores. Guess I better remember to wash my hands.

I think one can apply common sense to hygiene in the woods. Toilet paper is barely optional. You can use it for tinder afterwards. :) Yes to the stream, but it is darn inconvenient when you are fishing big water and you're wading.
 
Yeah, I agree 22Rimfire. And a couple of ounces of healthy pee in a stream isn't really a problem. Unless everyone is doing it. The whole business of poo management isn't really a big issue until you get more than just one or two people per acre if you know what I mean.

You could always pee inside your waders, then tip it out when you get to shore.
 
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