"No unnecessary weight in the poll."

Basically it lets me immediately get an idea of if I'm going to need to watch for wobble or not, and by how much, how the axe will want to present itself to the target, and if the axe will want to change the orientation of the head if I change where I'm gripping it, and in what way, all without having to have yet taken a single swing. Naturally the more time you spend in the actual swinging the more you'll naturally begin to adapt to the tool, but I find this a great way to cut that acclamation time down by a great deal. Likewise when making a handle for the tool it really helps with optimizing the shape.
 
Not sure how well this'll work for all users since it's a Facebook video (not YouTube, Vimeo, etc.) so the embed code doesn't work, but a friend just sent me this rather interesting video of a Russian spoon carver. Look what he's done with the handles on his axe and adzes about 7:00 in.

Click.
 
. . . Look what he's done with the handles on his axe and adzes about 7:00 in. . .
I wasn't able to tell at what point in the video these were from.

Axe

30161197780_52e341c8fa_c.jpg


Adze

30372388711_9e77ce3631_c.jpg


I think he needs a little more negative angle in the dangle of camber, and the hyperbolic fulcrum dissection is pretty far off the tangential plane. For the most part he seems to be headed in the right direction for a break through in another 50-60 years.

Very interesting.:thumbup:

Bob
 
No, not a straw man argument. You continually refer how you think that the axe handle makes more sense to reference because it's not an invisible line. I'm saying that the axle makes more sense because its where the axe is actually balancing and therefore where it wants to center its lateral rotation. Because it contains the CoG, it's also the line along which it will balance fore/aft when held 90° to the horizontal.



It would want to inherently move, but the purpose of mentioning this was not that the force had a major impact on the axe in fore-aft pivot, but rather that it represented starting the axe in your example from a starting position that did not properly constrain the effects of moving the CoG. This is much like when people make the old flat vs. convex edge argument by saying that a convex is stronger because it fits outside the bounds of a flat V when the three points are kept the same...the reason it is stronger is actually because in the process of that manipulation the edge angle has been made thicker, and so for the basis of comparing geometry the edge angle needs to be held constant. In this case, the starting position of the CoG should always be in the starting position that results in zero torque in 2D profile.




And that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that the behavior occurs--it only quantifies it. There's value in that, but the more fundamental matter is that those forces and behaviors are present at all. You had said:



It's true that if you limit motion to only fore/aft without permitting lateral rotation then only the fore/aft torque and the handle matter significantly, but...axes don't move like that. In cases where the axle sits forward of the handle the user has to be trying to constrain the input force on the handle to the 2D plane of the stroke because the greater the distance of the handle at the grip point from the axle the greater the leverage any lateral motion at that point will have on the axle, making it easier to cause it to wobble if there's any deviation



My actual claims aren't changing. I keep trying to explain it in ways that you're able to digest it because it seems to me that you don't fully get it yet. Again, this is something that's conceptually and practically very simple to see and feel--but it's hard to put it into words that are suitably effective at communicating that information. I appreciate the fact that you went through the effort, but it has only a minimal impact on the core concept. The desire to tilt forward or backward when the CoG is changed while keeping the edge position fixed in space is only significant from the standpoint that it shows that the tool is starting from a position that is not neutral like it was before, and that it would need to have its pivot corrected in order to keep that torque you're discussing equal to before at the start of the stroke.




I'm "clinging" to it because they're not flaws in my understanding of how the tool wishes to behave--I've rather apparently failed to communicate it in a way where you understand what I'm trying to get at. The reason why it's important that it want to move in that way to bring itself into balanced suspension is that it represents a shift in the axle, which is the axis around which the tool wants to rotate. This means that how the handle is oriented relative to the axle has changed and there may now be more or less potential for wobble as a result.



See above. The importance is less so about the quantity of the force as much as what the presence of that force is indicating. Granted that the greater the force, the more change has been enacted, but the fact that it is a much smaller force than gravity acting on the axe when horizontal is inconsequential to its significance. It's mostly about what impact that's had on the axle position relative to the handle and if the altitude of a second grip point has been increased or decreased as a result, and/or if the handle has changed from following to leading the CoG (though this isn't likely under most circumstances.)

jebus crow-- ever since i got here (3 years ago) you have been an insufferable contrarian. i would post here more often if it wasnt for you popping up from time to time, always giving thorough, persistent, cynical, and aggressive replies.

don't be such a bully.
 
jebus crow-- ever since i got here (3 years ago) you have been an insufferable contrarian. i would post here more often if it wasnt for you popping up from time to time, always giving thorough, persistent, cynical, and aggressive replies.

don't be such a bully.

Sorry you feel that way. Not sure how I'm a contrarian or cynical, though. I'll gladly concede that I'm persistant, though. This is something I've noticed and think would be useful for people to know about. You can always put me on your ignore list, ya' know. :)

Edit to add: I was going to ignore it, but it's bothering me too much so I'm going to speak my mind. You dare to call me a bully in a thread that I started, where I was asked a question, and because my response flew in the face of the current paradigm's lore it riled up the peanut gallery to the point where I repeatedly was the target of personal insults, had my experience and the quality of my character brought into question, and even a tepid attempt at doxing directed at me? And despite this I've remained polite and avoided making personal jabs--even inviting those who aimed those slings and arrows at me to stay and contribute, and yet I'm the bully here? Balderdash.
 
Last edited:
...a suggestion to adopt more of the language (and methods) of conventional physics, as a way to help improve the understanding of your audience. Old editions of Engineering Mechanics textbooks can be picked up pretty cheap, and I think they would be valuable.

"Engineering mechanics describes the behavior of a body, in either a beginning state of rest or of motion, subjected to the action of forces." (from Wikipedia)

Just saying... it would be a good foundation to build upon.
By the way, you might be interested in this diagram. It represents a forearm and wrist swinging a "beam" that's subjected to a striking force:


Figure8.jpg

from Rod Cross (2004). "Center of percussion of hand-held implements" (PDF). American Journal of Physics. 72 (5): 622–630.



I haven't seen "center of percussion" come up in your theories. It's mentioned in this article from Russia (which also mentions that the center of gravity is usually located at the "barb" of Russian axe heads):

df3f6ca6279f850b1dfb99460362def6.gif

"...At the moment of impact to the ax is applied resultant force resistance tree somewhere in the middle of the blade, for example at point A (Fig. 1) in the direction of A (the so-called line of impact). Because of the center of gravity ax ax handles (u. t) is shifted away from the line AB. Usually it is situated in the barbs (point C in Fig. One). If the ax fell down before impact, all while maintaining a horizontal position (without rotation), then the moment of impact due to different n. ie the line of impact he would have spun down the ax handle clockwise and working, wanting to keep the horizontal position of the tool, felt the blow on his fingers. To avoid this, before hitting ax report such rotational motion counterclockwise so that it offset the ax ax handle to turn down. Then after hitting return in the hand will not. The result of adding motion ax down and required rotation counterclockwise rotation will turn around some point O located on the perpendicular to the punch line, which passes through q. that instrument. This point is called the center of percussion."
from http://survinat.com/2014/10/construction-and-rafting-number-1/


Here's an analysis of "center of percussion" which ties in with the topic of this thread (polls vs. no polls):

Chronicle.jpg

from Vemard Foley and Richard H. Moyer, "The American Axe: Was It Better?" Chronicle (Early American Industries Association) 30 (June 1977), pp. 28-32.

According to this article, one of the hypothesized advantages of the polled axe is related to the side-to-side vibrations that occur when an axe hits the wood. The authors tested some actual trade axes and found the center of percussion (for the side-to-side vibrations) was located at the front of the eye. When they did computer modelling for the trade axe design, they got the same result. When they tested more than 50 American axes, they found that the center of percussion was located at the center of the eye for almost all the samples. The authors thought that this could lead to more unpleasant vibrations (or stinging) for the poll-less axes, since their handles are situated with more distance away from the center of percussion (with the maximum vibration at the back of the handle).
 
Very Interesting Steve. I'm wondering if they mean the back of the handle being the part that meats the grove of your palm. That makes sense to me. I also wonder if they are referring to the balance point of the axe to the handle, like with a plumb bob, or the balance point when u balance the head on it's side.
 
...I'm wondering if they mean the back of the handle being the part that meats the grove of your palm. That makes sense to me. I also wonder if they are referring to the balance point of the axe to the handle, like with a plumb bob, or the balance point when u balance the head on it's side.

Yes, they refer to the back of the handle as the part that faces rearward and contacts the groove of the palm. What they call the balance point is found by balancing the head on its side (like with the axe lying flat on a table with the head balancing on a sharp edge or a pencil, for example).
 
Do you have a link to the complete article? I personally have some reservations about their assertions and would like to see how they're arriving at them. A shift up or down in the eye seems unlikely to cause a noticeable difference in experienced shock. Shock felt in the hand results from the waves traveling down the length of the tool and the nodes in those vibrational waves are where you won't be experiencing that shock while the peaks in the waves are where you'd feel the most. It's unclear to me how moving that center up or down will alter the wave form along the length. More mass in the head will soak up more vibration than a smaller mass will, though. I'd similarly be interested in their definition of the center of percussion, as there's often confusion over the term, as noted in the center of percussion article you linked to. The term "center of percussion" tends to get tossed around with "sweet spot" which is usually actually what the article calls the "node of the
fundamental vibration mode."

Ultimately, though, the CoP doesn't apply to the dynamics that I've been discussing so far, which is why I haven't mentioned it. I've been talking about rotational forces--not vibrational ones.
 
Do you have a link to the complete article?

No, those articles are generally not found anywhere online. I bought a DVD last year that contains every issue (of The Chronicle Of The Early American Industries Association) from Volumes 1-60, dating from 1933(!) to 2007. They are on PDF files, and the DVD is searchable. For anyone who's interested in reading about old tools, it could be the best $15 you've ever spent.

The Early American Industries Association has a website at eaia dot org. The DVD can be ordered from the site's "store", or by calling the contact number on their Facebook page.

Benjamin, if you just want some specific information from that article, you can email me, but I do recommend getting the DVD.
 
Back
Top