Not sharpening a new and VERY Queen #9 Stockman

G

GradeMaker

Joined
Dec 12, 2006
Messages
79
VERY DULL. Though I admit to being somewhat of a sharpening novice, I've been working on this #9 on my Sharpmaker for quite some time. I'm just stunned by how thick the factory edge is on the master blade of this Queen stockman and how dull it came from the factory. Do I need to back bevel to thin the edge before I'll be able to get an edge that'll do more that open an envelope about as well as a pencil? Most of my knives (Spydercos, Vics, Case) come with a good and usually very sharp factory edge. Several GEC's and this Queen though don't seem to have been given much of a sharpening before they left the factory. I've read that such dullness is not uncommon and am just wondering why these better USA makers sell us dull knives? Is that a dumb question?
 
not a dumb ? those of us that have the good fortune to experience owning & using many knives have come not only to expect that some brands come dull as a brick but we welcome it so we can put our own magic on the blades. gec & queen are 2 brands that many times have cold chisel edges. the gecs have a good thin flat grind so edging up is'nt difficult. if you received a queen with a fat bevel & its in d2 steel you need power equipment or a long spell on diamonds. if you are used to the razor edge of spydies this is a rough welcome to hard times on the stones.dennis
 
Thanks Dennis - if its diamonds I need than so it is. The corners of the Sharpmaker brown stones are having no appreciable effect on the Queen, however the effect on me is discouraging and frustrating. Seems I'm not using he right tool for the job.
 
GradeMaker said:
VERY DULL. Though I admit to being somewhat of a sharpening novice, I've been working on this #9 on my Sharpmaker for quite some time. I'm just stunned by how thick the factory edge is on the master blade of this Queen stockman and how dull it came from the factory. Do I need to back bevel to thin the edge before I'll be able to get an edge that'll do more that open an envelope about as well as a pencil? Most of my knives (Spydercos, Vics, Case) come with a good and usually very sharp factory edge. Several GEC's and this Queen though don't seem to have been given much of a sharpening before they left the factory. I've read that such dullness is not uncommon and am just wondering why these better USA makers sell us dull knives? Is that a dumb question?
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No, it's not a dumb question. I'm still wondering the same thing.

Welcome to the 'I just got my new (and incredibly thick-edged) Queen club' :confused:. It's a common revelation to new owners of D2 Queens.

I used my Lansky set (with a diamond hone; this is important) to reprofile a couple of Queens I've purchased. An Xtra-coarse or coarse diamond hone is invaluable to get it done. Otherwise, it's gonna take a while to establish a new, thinner bevel on it. On the upside, once you've put a new, acute bevel on it, you'll love how it holds onto that edge. I've learned to love Queen's D2 blades, but they take some work to get 'em right.
 
Most every one of us in this forum feels your pain, GM. I've certainly put my time in on the hones. (Hence my signature, below...;))

I think you will find (as others have recommended) that an extra-coarse diamond hone will be a valuable ally in the fight. Once I get to the edge with the XC and move up the grits a bit I like to finish with medium, fine and ultra-fine ceramic.

A sharp knife is a thing of beauty. (And imho there is no excuse for any knife maker, custom or production, to sell knives with dull edges.)
 
I used my Lansky set (with a diamond hone; this is important) to reprofile a couple of Queens I've purchased. An Xtra-coarse or coarse diamond hone is invaluable to get it done. Otherwise, it's gonna take a while to establish a new, thinner bevel on it. On the upside, once you've put a new, acute bevel on it, you'll love how it holds onto that edge. I've learned to love Queen's D2 blades, but they take some work to get 'em right.
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Same here ... the only difference is I use a DMT Aligner.
 
While I absolutely love the couple of US made traditional knives (GEC) I own and they were all razor sharp from the factory, I think it is troubling to hear about continued issues like this from Queen and on occasion GEC. I understand that QC is not going to catch everything, but a dull blade seems like a pretty big thing to miss on tool that has the sole function of cutting things.
 
I've used a coarse Norton India stone and Carborundum to broaden the bevel and get a nice toothy edge that would be a good start on any other knife. But when I fo to the washita, hard arkansas and ceramic rod it just gets duller. What's up with that? This progression works nicely with all non super steels, 1095 CV Trusharp 440A.

Frustrating.
 
In the end, I sacrificed the blade etch on my Queen #9 stockman in D2, put it on the belt sander and thinned it down until it would cut. The sheepsfoot and spey blades were fine, but that clip blade was terrible. The edge bevel was up to the etch by the time I got it to 30 degrees included. I don't mind putting my own edge on a new knife, but having to finish grinding the blade is a bit much.
 
I've read about dull Queen D2 blades for years in this forum but don't think I recall anyone ever mentioning what the people at Queen say about their blades, and if their reasoning makes sense.
 
Thanks guys - Yablanowitz - who is it over on the Spydie forum who has a signature that says ' having a dull knife is like having a stupid friend'? I can't recall off the top. Either way - seems like Queen and others should speak to it.
 
Blues said:
Most every one of us in this forum feels your pain, GM. I've certainly put my time in on the hones. (Hence my signature, below...;))

I think you will find (as others have recommended) that an extra-coarse diamond hone will be a valuable ally in the fight. Once I get to the edge with the XC and move up the grits a bit I like to finish with medium, fine and ultra-fine ceramic.

A sharp knife is a thing of beauty. (And imho there is no excuse for any knife maker, custom or production, to sell knives with dull edges.)
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Well I'm gonna get myself in a potload of trouble, but I'm going to disagree with Elliott. (Never a good idea, but I do have some idea of what I'm talking about. Figuring costs is a big part of engineering and factory work.)

When the bean-counters calculate how much it costs to pay a man in a factory his salary and benefits, then add in the overhead costs of giving him a place to work, it is not uncommon for the "fully burdened labor cost" to be $150 per hour.

So figure it takes an extra 10 minutes to get that nice sharp edge per knife. (ballpark figure: D2 blade. Could be higher or lower, I took a stab at it.) The base line cost of the knife just went up by $150/6 or $25.00. That is before anybody makes a profit, just the raw cost of the knife. So the mfg has to add a % profit, say 10%. Then that all gets doubled when the "list price" is calculated. So to get that sharp edge y'all want could add $55 to the list price of the knife. Discount that back down by buying off the internet and you still have a price increase of ~$30. Good chance that could take it out of my pocket book range.

So, yeah. I'll whine a bit about the hassle of sharpening D2 just like you folks do. But at least I can afford the knife. The edge I can fix. I can't change the steel. I can't change the fit and finish. But, I can fix the edge myself.

I do agree with Elliott that an Extra Coarse DMT stone (mine cost $20) makes that work go a lot faster. But I got four Queens, and I'm likely to get more. I only had to spend that $20 once.
 
I don't mind the cold chisel edge, it's having the blade end up 0.050" thick at the back of the bevel that bugs me. They could leave the edge bevel off completely if they'd take the main grind down to 0.010" at the edge. They manage it on the other two blades, why not on the main?
 
When i joined BF about 3 1/2 years ago, my first interest was in the current Queen knives (i.e. D2). I was a total novice and back then there wasn't much posted about how thick and dull the Queen blades are. After buying about 10 new Queen folders, i still didn't have even 1 blade that could cut well even after many hours as a novice sharpener, so my interest went on to other brands. I didn't realize at the time that i was trying to learn to sharpen on what are probably the most difficult of production blades.
Expecting the consumer to improve a functional edge if he so desires and has the technique, is acceptable. But expecting the consumer to complete the primary grind before he can even work on the edge is unacceptable.
If you have a Sharpmaker get the diamond rods too. They are essential and increase the usefulness of this tool by a 100%. But it still takes a couple of hours to thin out D2 with an Rc ~60.
roland
 
Since we don't cross-link here, I thought I would copy/paste a response to dull factory knives by Mike Stewart (BRK).

I don't want to make excuses for Bill and his staff but Heirloom/Collector grade slip joints are notorious for not being sharp from the factory.

the old Time Collectors actually preferred them unsharpened or with just barely a hint of a bevel.

They would then NEVER sharpen them themselves and the knife would maintain the highest collector value

"Brand New - In The Box - Unsharpened"

Keep in mind that I wholeheartedly disagree with this kind of thing but it is a fact.

Collector Grade Slip Joints were never know for being sharp.
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I personally open all blades for pictures on a lot of knives and am glad they are not razor sharp as I would not take very good pictures with nubs. Not that they are very good anyway....

Mike Latham
CollectorKnives.Net
 
Problem is, Old timers would not have been trying to re sharpen/profile D2 ,an extremely hard steel, might be OK with carbon.

Queen are a lottery, half of my pocket knives and sheath knives from them have come wonderfully sharp-and it's quite easy to keep them that way-the other half would've been safe for tiny tots to play with.....and they are proving VERY tough to sharpen(might have to send them to a pro frankly). If they can send out half sharp it just means thet don't BOTHER with the other half, this is insulting in my view.
 
knarfeng as a production engineer certainly brings out an interesting aspect of manufacturing costs. although the gecs are dull many times out of box, the incredible flat grind is easily remedied. however the much thicker blade bevel of queen in d2 makes some knives almost impossible for newbies to tackle. i have an older lo-ray electric powered machine that remedies blunt bevels rather quickly. i did rebevel a b.m. d2 yesterday to a slimmer profile although it was still shaving. well heattreated d2 is an eye opener when addressing the concept of abrasion resistance. my real concern is that initial difficulties may discourage newbies to our hobby. dennis
 
A dull knife out of the box is like a watch that can't keep time out of the box. These are pretty good looking knives but as a knife they are a failure because they are dull, all too often very dull. In my simplistic mind that's the way it is. Thus, I stay clear from those brands. :thumbdn:
 
So, now, I sit here after reading this news with my new gold pearl copperhead in front of me (2003 model). I am really a guy that cannot stand a knife that is not sharp when new. I've had a lot more of them than sharp ones I might add.

A couple months ago I bought a Case Sodbbuster Jr. in CV and a Queen Country Cousin in D2. I ordered them at the same time and they came within a day of each other. While the Case edge wasn't what I'd call hair popping sharp, the Queen was, well, just plain dull. To the point that it appeared that Queen just did the blade grinding and skipped the sharpening step altogether. I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that to my mind, that is just unacceptable. The Case gets carry time. The Queen stays in the storage case.

Now, back to the copperhead. I will be sharpening it, but with the equipment I have at my disposal, it will take me a while to do it. Actually, it is not nearly as dull as the Country Cousin was so it won't be as tough to do. I have always sharpened my knives by hand on a flat stone (diamond - india - strop). It just peeves me to have to spend a lot of time on the bench beveling and sharpening a knife that was unfinished at the factory. Yes, unfinished. I don't think it is unreasonable for a customer to expect to be able to take a new knife out of the packaging (should be box, but I have to say packaging now) and use it without having to spend time to sharpen it.
Ed
 
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