Notice!!!! sharpening is not an art, its a mechanical skill.

[fvdk]

House painting is a skill. Painting a masterpiece is art.

Playing a musical instrument is a skill. Envoking an emotional response is art.

The way I sharpen is a skill. The way you masters sharpen is art.


Hmmm... if sharpening is just a mechanical process, simply grinding 2 planes to an apex, why don't manufacturers use machines to sharpen?

You said it better than I could but than again, English is not my native language

 

[Insipid Moniker]

House painting is a skill. Painting a masterpiece is art.

Playing a musical instrument is a skill. Envoking an emotional response is art.

The way I sharpen is a skill. The way you masters sharpen is art.


Hmmm... if sharpening is just a mechanical process, simply grinding 2 planes to an apex, why don't manufacturers use machines to sharpen?

Manufacturers are beginning to use machines to sharpen. It's not yet cost effective to go to that method entirely.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

Manufacturers are beginning to use machines to sharpen. It's not yet cost effective to go to that method entirely.

Also, the human hand has developed over eons into one of the most amazing tools on earth. But, I send my machine tools out to be sharpened and they are done on modern CNC controlled machinery. They told me, when I inquired, that the tools sent to them are scanned by computer and then the information is transferred to the machine doing the work in code that the machine can interpret. The results are amazing. I would do it in shop, but its not something I can match skills with. Is it art? Machine art possibly.

 

[JR88FAN]

It's an art to have the mechanical skill to create a perfect edge on piece of steel using stones....

 

[Jason B.]

Its not about you, don't have such illusions. Its a blanket statement and a true one. Its for people who get on here and think, by reading some of the post, that sharpening is more difficult than it actually is. As Bill says, your intersecting two planes and making the apex as refined as needed. All of us can do that and we don't need a thousand dollars worth of equipment nor years of experience. For many its that they have been embarrassed to ask someone who has the skills thinking they might be thought of as unqualified to learn. I've spent a lifetime as a teacher, most of the time pro bono publico, for the public good and I love seeing success in people. One success leads to another success. Life just works that way. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in one's accomplishments but to place those on a pedestal is not of any advantage to anyone other than the one with the skills.

You would have been better served without the original post. My dog Tipper gives me all the attention I need to get me through the day.

Take the time to share your skills with others, it is quite rewarding.

Regards, Fred

Hmm, is this why you sent me this message?

 

[Fred.Rowe]

Leonardo Da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa in the year 1503.

Michelangelo painted this section of the Sistine Chapel around 1512. Both of these are recognized world wide as the finest pieces of art known.

Art is generally understood as any activity or product done by people with a communicative or aesthetic purpose—something that expresses an idea, an emotion or, more generally, a world view. All the rest is craft or skill set.

By saying the skill of knife sharpening is art its being implied that what is produced is an emotional expression or is aesthetically pleasing. Now I'll agree that a well done edge is inspiring to me personally, but its not the visual that is impressive, its how sharp the edge is, how the knife cuts.

Art is the building of, an amalgamation of materials or sounds. Art is the act of creation. Sharpening removes steel from the knife's edge whatever technique is used. I imagine this could be considered equal to Michelangelo removing material from one of his masterful marble sculptures, but not really.

Don't get me wrong here guys; I'm a seasoned knife maker who prides himself in making as fine a knife as I possibly can. I am the same with the edges I produce.
The thing is, I've apprenticed two knife makers in my shop teaching them the skills that I know and they have gone on to become well respected makers in their own right.
Da Vinci could spend a life time at my shop and he could never teach me to paint a Mona Lisa

Good Evening, Fred

 

[Fred.Rowe]

Hmm, is this why you sent me this message?

No its because I find you petty and insufferable. Its not the first time you have insulted me and no doubt will not be the last. I try my best to ignore you. I would have gladly treated you with equal respect. But when you lashed out at me when I introduced my ERU sharpener, the die was cast. You only get to walk on my feet once, twice if I'm not watching closely. Never a third time.
As someone who sharpens professionally I would hate to admit that I am not capable of turning out but a few great edges in a single year. Bad ad bud.

I would not loose sleep over it, we just rub each other the wrong way, Fred

 

[Bill DeShivs]

If someone doesn't have a clue how to sharpen a knife, it might seem like an art. Once you understand how to sharpen a knife, it's simply a skill.

I consider myself an artist in a few ways- as a professional musician, a hand engraver, as a cutler, and as a jeweler. Knife sharpening is just a skill that's pretty easy and can be fun to learn.

I agree that making neophytes think sharpening is hard keeps them from even trying to learn how to hand sharpen. You don't need $200-$300 worth of stones, jigs and equipment. All you need is a couple of stones- or even some wet/dry sandpaper and a flat surface. People have been hand sharpening metal knives for 400-500 years. Only recently have jigs and such become a necessity.

And should any of you doubt Fred Rowe's sincerity in his original post, please understand that this man produces preset-angle sharpeners, and jigs for knife grinding. If he REALLY wanted to sell a bunch of those he could tell you all about how difficult it is to sharpen knives. But-he doesn't. He comes here to tell you a simple truth that promulgates the notion that hand sharpening is hard- or even "art."

 

[pjwoolw]

Hmm, is this why you sent me this message?

Posting a private message is so chicken s**t. Jason your so full of yourself its unbelievable. A legend in your own mind.

I'm with Fred. I do my best to ignore you since your so inconsistent in your opinions on sharpening and advice you give. Your like the wind.

Anyway call it art. Call it a skill. Its all fun stuff to do and a great skill to learn. Very rewarding however you choose to accomplish the task.

Its the separating the wheat from the chaff in all these forums and such thats tough for folks that haven't been doing these kinds of tasks for 45 years or more. Thats why guys like me who have so much time in try to impart what knowledge we have gained. In other words the mistakes we have made can help someone make headway in the sharpening arena.

 

[HwangJino]

I'm going to say it's art.

This is done by hand, not guided or machine.

No matter how long I sharpen and polish, i would never reach this level.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Read the sticky I wrote at the top of the MT&E forum. It was designed to take the mystery and mystique out of sharpening. Knife sharpening shouldn't be a big thing cloaked in smoke and mirrors. But it most certainly is an art.

Jason B’s character and reputation should be beyond reproach, anyone’s personal arguments with him notwithstanding. I wrote that sticky (that has been viewed 80,000 times and referenced on other forums) based largely on what I learned from Jason B. In fact, he taught me and many others here a great deal. Any of the hundreds of people here who have had Jason B put an edge on a knife for them can tell you that he isn't selling snake oil or making anything up. And I’ve never known him to be a prima donna. I’ve never met someone more humble with his time and considerable skills, and I’ve never met someone more willing to teach. There are hundreds of examples here of people thanking him for helping them to learn the art of sharpening.

To me, sharpening is art. The more I sharpen, the more that is apparent to me. Just as it is to Murray Carter and the 17 generations of sharpeners before him in Japan. I play the piano, and I think knife sharpening is very similar. You can learn how to play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in 5 minutes… but to play Rachmaninoff with the necessary sensitivity and feeling, as well as technical ability, is very different.

In the same way, getting any stone, working up a burr, and then knocking it off will have you cutting a potato in a few minutes… but using the right stones to reveal a hamon, eyeballing angles to within 1°, and putting the right edge on a high-end Yanagi ba without ruining it are very different. We won't even go into using Japanese finger stones to bring out the soul of a Katana. You can take sharpening as far as you want to, individualize it, and add your own interpretation. That is art.

So yes, it shouldn’t be cloaked in mystery, and yes, if you just want to cut a potato, it doesn't take much skill or knowledge. But it most certainly is an art. If it wasn’t, then this thread wouldn’t be so active with folks pondering the finer points of sharpening or curious about getting into new stones and taking on new challenges. There is more going on there. The stone gives you tactile and audible feedback. Different steels at different heat treatments reacts differently to different stones. Getting the muscle memory down takes a lot of practice. It is a lot like learning to play an instrument, and it is a lifelong pursuit of perfection, if you choose to make it that.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

We aren't talking about Japanese sword polishing with mitsubishis, wasabis and toyo tas. We are taking about simply sharpening a knife.
There is quite a bit of difference. As I understand it, sword polishing may very well be an art. Putting a good edge on a KABAR is a skill, and it doesn't require waterstones, jigs, fixtures or anything else expensive.
While some on this forum are searching for the pinnacle of sharpening, most aren't. And there is actually VERY little difference between a good common edge and that pinnacle. Because of the number of people here that pursue the perfect edge, inexperienced people get put off-thinking sharpening is some lost art or they need all kind of expensive gear.
Actually, sharpening is so simple that all the talk about new stones and techniques is actually humorous to me at times, and spending hundreds of dollars on a waterstone is, in my opinion, totally ridiculous. To the common observer this forum can seem like going to a calculus club meeting. They don't realize that a lot of members are into "extreme sharpening."
And, the perfect edge- what good would it be, exactly? Surgeons don't sharpen their scalpels, they use disposables. Any "perfect" edge is gone after a couple of decent cuts.

 

[killgar]

Holy crap. This just goes to show that people can and will argue about anything at Bladeforums. Sounds like another example of "My way is the right way and anyone who thinks differently is wrong".

I have two words- who cares.

If someone wants to call sharpening an art, how does that really hurt anyone. Some people make it sound like to even suggest such a thing is an insult to their religion or a slur against their ancestry.

And if people want to say it's just a mechanical skill, then good for them too. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Is anyone here such a supreme authority on sharpening that they are qualified to say which opinion is right and which is wrong? Perhaps some people here think that they do qualify as "authorities" and that their opinions are more valid than others.

And if someone gets discouraged and chooses not to even try to learn how to sharpen because they have allowed themselves to believe that it's purely an art and that only a select few gifted people can do it, then that's their problem for being so easily discouraged, and shame on them for that.

To me, sharpening a knife is no different than tying shoes, changing a tire, or brushing teeth. It's a utilitarian task that serves a practical purpose. And once I learned how to do it properly I never forgot how, and my life has been easier ever since.

Some people like to make things complicated.

And as far as "hero worship", hell, people are free to worship whomever they like.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

We explained why. Because it confuses people. We're trying to make things "uncomplicated."

Between Fred and I, there is around a hundred years of experience- maybe more. I would say that qualifies us to speak our minds.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

We explained why. Because it confuses people. We're trying to make things "uncomplicated."

Between Fred and I, there is around a hundred years of experience- maybe more. I would say that qualifies us to speak our minds.

I'm sorry, but having a hundred years of experience doesn’t qualify anybody for anything on the internet, although I'm sure you and Fred know a lot. You have to show people. We have seen Jason's skills, so we trust them. It's as simple as that. It's not "hero worship." I spent hours and hours on my sticky to try to make it as simple as possible. And Jason B did a lot to help me gain the skills to share with others.

Have you ever seen anybody say they were discouraged because Jason made them feel like they couldn't learn to sharpen a knife? I haven't. To the contrary, I have seen people thank him many, many times for making things clearer. The links in his signature are some of the most-quoted threads in MT&E, and for a very good reason. Check out his YouTube channel; you will find dozens of videos that have helped people sharpen better. So I don’t think he tries to confuse people. To the contrary, I think he tries to make things clearer for people. He makes things clearer for me, anyway.

 

[coldsteelburns]

I'm going to say it's art.

This is done by hand, not guided or machine.

No matter how long I sharpen and polish, i would never reach this level.

:thumbup:

Polishing a hamon using natural water stones (or others) is deffinitely an art! But the blades on japanese swords become sharp during the polishing process.

The "creation" and development of a hamon is an art in istelf, whether done the traditional Japanese way or using some sort of hybrid etching and polishing technique. There is a science as to how and why a hamon is "created", but it is definitly an expression of the bladesmith/knifemaker when if comes down to how they "choose" to go about the way they layout the clay the blade, what they use as their "clay", how they decide to heat treat it (ie. what temperature and how long of a soak time at that temp), what quenchant they decide to use (water, brine, fast oil etc), and then what type of polishing mediums and/or etchants they decide to use.

I think this is a different subject though.
-------------------

Regarding the actual matter at hand, it's really all in the "eye of the beholder" as well as how in depth the person decides to get into sharpening and polishing cutting edges.

However, I believe any person with normal motor and cognitive functions can learn to sharpen a knife as sharp as pretty much any type of edge there is "needs" to be.

"Need" being the key word here.

~Paul

---

My YT Channel Lsubslimed
... (It's been quite a while since I've posted any new vids)

 

[WuGod]

Is cooking skill or art?

I am a hell of a cook. If I offer, I can have 20 people at my place to eat, and they all know they have to bring me good whiskey if they want to be invited back.
That said, I am no chef. I do better than chain restaurants, by far imho, but there is an italian place a mile from my house in a strip mall that far exceeds my skills.
I am a skilled cook, that place has a chef that produces art.
I can sharpen a knife. I can, in fact, sharpen a knife better than anyone I know. Its something I have been goofing off at since cub scouts when I was 5 or 6, so over 30 years now. My edges push cut tomatoes, receipt paper, catch goatee/chest hair. I have read that people think cutting open blister packages mean they have a sharp edge, I say try cutting the bottom of a cheap handle of plastic vodka. That is sharp. That is a skill.
Someone who notices scratches in an edge from dust on his strop is an artist at sharpening.

 

[bucketstove]

Is cooking skill or art? ...

A skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of negotiation. See Synonyms at skill.

A skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice:

Yeah, people all over the world think "art" is only "paintings" ... if only they knew how to use a dictionary

Hmm.... I have "this" skill ... I know how to do this... "this" artist ... thisist?
Hm.... sharpener ... no, thats one of those pull though things
hmmm.... sharpening artist??? too long ... shartist? yes, shartist, I put the f in art
Drinks for everybody

 

[stitchawl]

Let me add my not-so-humble opinion here...

Sharpening knives 'can be' an 'art' that is easily learned. Or...
Sharpening knives 'can be' simply a skill... that is easily learned.

It all depends on how you approach it. Nothing more. I'll explain what I mean.

Let's start with the 'skill' side. All we need is a simple guided sharpening device and its own stones. 15 minutes later and a monkey can have a shaving sharp edge. Read the manual first (hmmm.... that may fall into the 'art' catagory...) decide on the edge angle you want... set the screws, and scrub the blade with the stones quickly. This can be done while watching Monday Night Football. Before the first quarter is finished, the blade is shaving sharp.

Next, look at the free-hand sharpening on 2-3 stones approach. Once again. RTFM. This goes without saying. You have to learn how to use your tools before you start to use them correctly. Then you begin to practice and develop your skills. Still doesn't take a Rembrant or Picasso to turn out a sharp edge. It just takes understanding basic geometry and practicing your skill set. 30-45 minutes and you have a shaving edge 'after' developing your skills.

Lastly... Art. And we have the person who has purchased 27 different stones (and perhaps given each its own pet name,) sets up a quiet table away from all distractions, maybe even plays some quiet music in the background, maybe burns some incense and puts on a special apron or head band. Then sloooowly, he/she begins carving into the first stone. By the time he/she reaches the last stone, the seasons have changed. But then it's time to begin the stropping. Once again there is a progression from 3mic, 2mic, 1mic, 0.5mic 0.25mic and 0.10mic. Each of these grits, of course, needs to be done on three different substrates before moving to the next finer grit. The result is a shaving sharp edge, and it only took three days.

There is certainly a distinction between skill and art, but not necessarily a separation between them. Something can easily be both at the same time.

But perhaps most importantly, there is a very fine line between 'hobby,' and mental illness.

 

[bodog]

I vote science because my dumbass can do it. I've never been an artist in my life. Sharpening is as simple as saying here, do this this way, watch out for this, finish it this way, and bada bing, bada boom, you have a sharp knife. The more you learn about what you're doing and about the tools needed to do the job the faster and more efficient you can be, no different than an auto mechanic. Half the battle is wading through the bs and getting the right tools. The other half is just getting out there and doing it. It's not hard to change a u-joint in a car if you've done it before and have the right tools. If you've never done it before and don't have the right equipment, it'd seem impossible because it is. It's not mysterious. Learn how to do it, pay attention to what you're doing, pay attention to what you're doing it with and how these twork things play off each other, and boom, you're a knife sharpening whiz who can help others. I can tell someone how to sharpen a knife and they'll be far more successful than if I tell them how to paint a picture or play a song on the piano.