Notice!!!! sharpening is not an art, its a mechanical skill.

Let me clear up what I was saying when I said I only create a few perfect edges a year.

It's simple really, it's like pitching the perfect game, does not happen often but when the stars align and the angels sing the perfect game is pitched. I'm relying on my body, my hands and arms to work in perfect unison with a knife that has no defects. Some days I am tired but I still create an edge that rates an 8 out of 10 in my book. I'm always aiming for that perfect 10 but it takes a lot to achieve and depending on how my day went it could be harder or easier than normal. For this reason I only get to experience what I consider perfection a few times a year.
 
We aren't talking about Japanese sword polishing with mitsubishis, wasabis and toyo tas. We are taking about simply sharpening a knife.
There is quite a bit of difference. As I understand it, sword polishing may very well be an art. Putting

I watched a special on PBS several years ago about some of the older generation Japanese that still do it the same as they always have. I could not believe the amount of time they put into those edges, and how they got those edges. I think that could be viewed as an art.

I don't consider typical sharping an art though, but it sure doesn't bother if some want to call it that.
I was a butcher by trade(before the unions got out), and owned a game processing business for several year, and the sharpening was much easier to learn than the rest of it. I sure don't consider that job an art, so I can't call the easiest part of it an art.

Many of my friends can't sharpen freehand, but its only because they didn't put in the time to learn. Most anyone can learn if they have the desire.
 
The funny thing is that many would consider knife making an art, yet you could argue the same case there about it only being a skill. Sharpening is in fact a part of knife making, hmm…… :confused: :rolleyes:
I was thinking the same thing. If you think about it, knife making in its most basic form is simply sharpening yet no one ever argues that knife making isn't an art:confused:. The whole art vs skill argument is silly because what someone considers art is their personal opinion there is no clear cut line that separates art and skill.
 
I had been following this thread with interest. My background in in the visual arts, I taught painting, drawing and printmaking and currently work at a major museum. IMO art can take many forms of expression but having skills does not always translate into art.
I believe anyone can learn to draw or paint if applied to it; but even a good drawing or a good painting does not always make a work of art. I suppose is the same with many human endeavors, we can transcend whatever is that we make, musical instruments(Stradivarius) cooking (a new recipe) and yes, knife making and sharpening into art. However,someone with great skills to copy a Picasso or a Rembrandt remains a skillful copyist and not an artist.
By the way, there is school of art & design in Boston that includes knife making in its course offerings.
 
The funny thing is that many would consider knife making an art, yet you could argue the same case there about it only being a skill. Sharpening is in fact a part of knife making, hmm…… :confused: :rolleyes:

I was thinking the same thing. If you think about it, knife making in its most basic form is simply sharpening yet no one ever argues that knife making isn't an art:confused:. The whole art vs skill argument is silly because what someone considers art is their personal opinion there is no clear cut line that separates art and skill.


Lol, this can be both true and false! Just as this whole sharpening thing, it's in the eye of the beholder and the passion and level they decide to take their "skill(s)" itoo.

However! There are SO many different "skills" and aspects that can be involved in making a knife, thus there are so many different opportunities a maker can express his or her artistic side.

With sharpening, you are only doing ONE thing, making two small bevels meet at an apex (not trying to dimish it in anyway). With knifemaking/bladesmithing, the maker gets to choose the materials, the shape, the size, the colors, (and then there's heat treating, which many will also consider an "art") the style etc. etc. etc. All of which are chosen by the maker, shaped and "sculpted" to their liking. Knifemaking could also be called, functional-sharp-sculpture-making. lol

But if a person takes an old file, roughly grinds some bevels and drills some holes in it, then attaches a couple pieces of plywood for the handle, where there'e not "much" art in that now is there.

Kinda like this dagger below.. there's absolutely NOTHING artistic about it.. not one place a maker could express theirself in such a piece... :D :p :foot:


21091587243_e94d65fdd7_h.jpg


..Sorry, couldn't resist! ;)

~Paul

My YT Channel Lsubslimed
... (It's been quite a while since I've posted any new vids)
 
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Who gives a fly...g f... if it is art or skill as long as Your knife is Sharp.

4 pages dabating nothing :thumbdn:
 
Who gives a fly...g f... if it is art or skill as long as Your knife is Sharp.

4 pages dabating nothing :thumbdn:

People have spent the last few thousand years discussing art, its foundation, it's relationship to human growth and its many expressions. For me, I like my knives sharp, but I also have a great appreciation for the guy who painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel or more current the work of Bruce Bump which is also great art. Debating nothing is when there is no subject being debated, this discussion did have a subject, it just did not interest you.
Regards, Fred

aap.jpg
 
Lol, this can be both true and false! Just as this whole sharpening thing, it's in the eye of the beholder and the passion and level they decide to take their "skill(s)" itoo.

However! There are SO many different "skills" and aspects that can be involved in making a knife, thus there are so many different opportunities a maker can express his or her artistic side.

With sharpening, you are only doing ONE thing, making two small bevels meet at an apex (not trying to dimish it in anyway). With knifemaking/bladesmithing, the maker gets to choose the materials, the shape, the size, the colors, (and then there's heat treating, which many will also consider an "art") the style etc. etc. etc. All of which are chosen by the maker, shaped and "sculpted" to their liking. Knifemaking could also be called, functional-sharp-sculpture-making. lol

But if a person takes an old file, roughly grinds some bevels and drills some holes in it, then attaches a couple pieces of plywood for the handle, where there'e not "much" art in that now is there.

Kinda like this dagger below.. there's absolutely NOTHING artistic about it.. not one place a maker could express theirself in such a piece... :D :p :foot:


21091587243_e94d65fdd7_h.jpg


..Sorry, couldn't resist! ;)

~Paul

My YT Channel Lsubslimed
... (It's been quite a while since I've posted any new vids)

How does it stand there like that? That is not art, that is magic !
 
You said it better than I could but than again, English is not my native language :)

When it comes to free hand sharpening I agree with this statement completely also when you use a jig or a system the end result still takes a degree of finesse to tweak the edge and that ability only comes after knowing what a sharp edge looks like. Part of recognizing art is learning what it is and looks like. Some artist drew a perfect circle free hand and was hailed as genius, an artistic innovator. He had to recognize a perfect circle before he could reproduce it.

Fred you know I love your system and I think it produces fantastic edge for what it's meant to be used for and the environment it was designed for which is a pretty varied range. That being said and having seen the edges produced by machines versus by hand on bench stones, hones and strops. I think the art comes when you give a man a hunk of heat treated steel and by hand, without the aid of any jig/mechanism or mechanical assistance and you produce a perfect edge for the purpose intended.

That might only be for slicing cardboard and paper, knowing the type of edge to put on the blade for the intended job is an art form, knowing the type of edge and being able to apply it to the steel and compensate for speed of cut, strength of edge, duration of edge retention, that's an art form. Ask any competitive cutter if the edge put on his competition blade was put on by a mechanic or an edge sharpening master. The problem is at is subjective and in a production mindset you look to get an end result that's repeatable and consistent, individual tastes in edges for particular knives/steel varies and being able to interpret what is wanted/needed and create it with what ever is available is an art form and when it's accomplished its art.

Even using your system with the intricacies of different steels, heat treats and blade cross sections, compensating for wear on the system and knife and still coming out with the desired edge is an art form. Some people just want a highly polished blade that can slice the letters off of news print and be so highly polished as to be able to read the fine print on prescription bottle is an art form. With that being said, sharpening free hand is an art form in my opinion, people who sharpen as well as any system or jigs are artists and when a knife is done and finished by hand to the desired finish it can be art.

I've seen edges produced by machine that were perfect but it always takes some one to check up on equipment to make sure it's tweaked to produce the best possible edge to get a job done. Consider a butcher, machines can cut meat and butcher meat producing consistent cuts of quality meat but the butcher who recognizes the contour of the muscles, the level of marbling and the grain of the meat to and how to slice that and get the best cut with the least waste is an artist.

Also, the human hand has developed over eons into one of the most amazing tools on earth. But, I send my machine tools out to be sharpened and they are done on modern CNC controlled machinery. They told me, when I inquired, that the tools sent to them are scanned by computer and then the information is transferred to the machine doing the work in code that the machine can interpret. The results are amazing. I would do it in shop, but its not something I can match skills with. Is it art? Machine art possibly.

Again the art is the end result, the machine is the brush with the edge being the canvas and the person marrying the two together providing that edge is the artist. Because art is subjective basically one can claim anything is art and don't have to prove it, just rationalize it and if I can convince someone else that it's art than to me and then it's art.

I'm sorry to go on for so long but being an artist of some types myself and having been a mechanic/machinist I tend to see art everywhere so on this point my friend I have to disagree.

One last thought, even the software used to run sharpening equipment can be considered art, ask any software engineer what they do and they'll tell you it's either art or magic. ;)

It's an art to have the mechanical skill to create a perfect edge on piece of steel using stones....

I agree, take two people give them the same equipment to accomplish the same end result with the same level of training and one will always be better, throw 1,000 people together with the same training on the same equipment and the differences become so blatantly obvious there will always be a few who just are better and in the even in that group there's obvious differences, eventually you realize that 1 or 2 % are so much better, they've mastered the skill and have imparted their own experience with the medium and tools to be considered artists. It's how you use what's available, how most see the end result of your labors that determine if it's art. Even as an artist just because I say it's art don't mean a thing but if somebody else says it's so then I have credibility, I become an artist and what I do is considered art.

Sorry to go on for so long Fred but the definition of art was always a sensitive spot with me. :) as these are only my opinions they are subject to change so anyone is welcome to convince me that they're right and I'm wrong. :)
 
Somewhere between "Artist" and "Technician", is "Craftsman"
I generally think sharpening is a craft, but isn't this all just an argument over semantics?

If your original point is that saying it's an art will discourage those beginning sharpeners who don't think they can be artists? Perhaps they put artists on a pedestal. One can be an artist, or a competent craftsman, yet not a master.
 
I'm pretty firm on sharpening being a science, not any form of art, but I have to note that many people on this thread are far too fixated on the concept of natural talent. They've done studies on musicians and what separated truly skilled musicians from the more mediocre was the number of hours they practiced. It was also a fairly accurate predictor of their level of success. Ask successful authors for one piece of advise and most will tell you write every day as the most important one. Yes, people with natural talent who grind will be better than those without who put in the hours, but the grind matters more than the talent.
 
My opinion: It is a skill...everyone can sharpen but some spend the time and have the patience to do it superbly thus some people believe this transcends and becomes an art form...but it is still a skill...

Art can be difficult to explain and define but as some have said...I knows it when I sees it...

My creds: An artist for most of my life and made a living off of my artistic abilities, scrimshaw artist, for over a decade. Learned the basics of art in college then from masters in the field...I was lucky and good enough at it to make a very good living until the damned govt. got involved in the importation of ivory and sperm whale teeth...bastards...
 
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