Now the fad is gone, who still likes chisel grinds?

Y'know, I've never been terribly fond of the chisel grind. However, since reading about their use in the kitchen, I'm now itchin' to try one out. So, I haven't totally written off chisel grinds (especially on chisels :p ), but I do still prefer a standard, dual-sided grind.
 
Normark said:
Funny thing is ,, the knife itself is made for right handed users,, however the blade grind is for Lefties...
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Amazing. That would be a pretty obvious design flaw. The Japanese make them both ways, right and left handed - the blades, that is.
 
though its ok for utility there are better grinds than a CG in that regard, but ya gotta remember emerson knives were not designed for utility use, for what they were designed for the CG works just fine, i think its easier to sharpen than a 'V' grind myself, the emerson zero bevel grinds are without a doubt the sharpest knives on the planet imho, ya gotta see/feel to believe it, they too arent the best for utility, but to cut flesh i cant even imagine a better grind myself, only prob w/the zero bevel grinds is all the ones i have seen other than a ECA P-tac are specwar emersons running $750 or so and up (way up in some cases) so not many have seen them, but those who have seen/felt them know what i am saying. actually the ECA P-Tac isnt cheap, like $400 or so NIB, point being the zero bevel grind is SHARP.

as far as the right/left issue, again ernie emerson says that for what its designed for, makes no diff. his word is good enough for me anyday. so its not a 'flaw' at all. i had a BM stryker proto that was CG i carried for a while, it was ground opposite from an EKI, was no better/worse at any cutting i did with it than an EKI. no diff at all.


i still like them myself, anyone who likes emersons has to lol, if ya didnt ya wouldnt be an EKI fan.
 
SIFU1A said:
as far as the right/left issue, again ernie emerson says that for what its designed for, makes no diff. his word is good enough for me anyday. so its not a 'flaw' at all.
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That's true. As a weapon for stabbing or slashing, it wouldn't matter at all. I wonder how many people on this forum buy a knife to use only for stabbing or slashing? Why not have one that can slice effectively or act as a good utility tool as well? What could it hurt? All you would need to do is to put the bevel on the outside of the blade instead of the inside. Wouldn't even cost any more.

I'd guess the grind is where it is in order to have the mark side of the knife on the "normal" side and have it look right. American knives have always been set up so a right handed person sees the mark side of the knife in use. Sorry, I would view putting the bevel on the inside of a single bevel blade as a pretty serious design flaw. It simply makes the knife less useful without gaining anything at all - with due respect to Normark and other lefties.

Normark is right. If the single bevel is on your left when you hold the knife, it is a left handed blade. I'll take 1000 years of Japanese knife making history as my "word" on it. It would be more valuable input for me than the opinion of a single knifemaker who didn't think the design through and wants to write it off as something unrelated to the intended purpose of the knife. In other words, I couldn't disagree with Mr. Emerson more strongly.

I wouldn't expect him necessarily to make both right and left handed models of the blade since his knives are intended to be weapons rather than tools. But I would expect him to put a right handed blade on a right handed knife since the great majority of knife buyers and users are right handed.

There's my controversial heretical comment for the day.
 
Incidentally, Sifu, I do agree with you that the single bevel isn't a particularly good grind for utility use. No argument there. It is a specialized format for slicing and has the added advantage of ease of maintenance. Like you, I would also recommend double bevels for utiliy use. I'm not disagreeing with you in this. I'm just criticizing the practice of putting a left handed blade on a right handed knife.
 
Hey Guys....

Here is the difference between a Left Handed Chisel, and a Right Handed Chisel.
Jeff Diotte is one of the few makers I've seen that actually makes both a left handed knife as well as a right handed knife..
In my opinion,, this is the proper way of doing it...

ttyle

Eric...
 
I've never liked chisel grinds. I've got an Emerson SOCFK (CQC-7b blade in a specwar handle) but it couldn't keep up, so it only sees use in situations that would damage my other knives.
 
It doesn't matter on which side the knife is ground in regards to pulling through the side, cut through something binding and the blade will tend to skew because the forces are not equal in direction as the blade is not symmetric. As for sharpening, you can sharpening a v-ground edge on one side only if you want. Just change the sides with each sharpening to maintain the v-grind.

-Cliff
 
I respectfully disagree, Cliff. I am right handed and when I want to cut thin beef slices, I want to be able to look down the blade and see the edge to know where to place the blade. That is pretty difficult and arkward on a kitchen knife with a 8 mm back (Deba hocho) when the grind is on the left side. It is very easy when the grid is on the right (and correct for a right handed person) side. Also, since this grind is most pronounced in Deba's with very thick blades made for cutting soft tissue (meat and fish) and fine slices of it, the thin slice easily bends out of the way and the CG actually opens up the cut while the thin slice puts essentially no force on the blade, the flat ground side, which actually is (or should be) concave (full concave if you will and only very, very slightly so) reduces suction and friction. Turn the grind over and suddenly the big chunk of meat is putting a force on the blade make it very difficult to cut (you get a cut that always seems to bend towards the "slice" (my girlfriend is left handed and its nearly impossible for her to use a right handed Deba). In Usuba's (and other vegetable knives) which are thinner the effect is not nearly as pronounced. Also the wedging effect can be too large for stiff things like carots where a thinner blade is needed.

As I said, cutting through the middle of a cabbage (or other large "stiff" material) it of course doesn't matter which side the grind is, its just not the right tool.

Of course you can sharpen a symmetrally beveled knife only on one side, but first it won't stay symmetric for ever and secondly, you don't have a large bevel that you can lean the knife on, because they are usually not ground to zero edge bevel. lastly the concaved "flat" side in a traditional japanese chisle grid makes cutting of the burr really, really easy.
 
Or another way to put that is that the flat inside of the blade is designed to help aim the blade and help determine the thickness of the slice. the large bevel on the outside is designed to help the cut-off portion be pushed away from the knife. If you put the bevel on the inside of the blade you lose both benefits. Hob's observations are quite correct.

Hob, you may be interested to know that most of the Japanese Western style kitchen knives have asymmetrical bevels with about 70% of the grinding done to the outside and 30% to the inside. So even though they are double beveled, the attraction of the single bevel design motivates the Japanese to at least head in that direction. I don't think it really matters much but the higher end manufacturers offer gyutos and sujihikis in both left and right handed versions. The only difference is the direction in which the asymmetrical bevels are cut. Of course, it is a simple matter to grind more on the inside to even out the bevels if that is what one prefers, unlike the traditional single bevel knives.
 
HoB said:
I want to cut thin beef slices
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This isn't a binding material which I noted is what causes skewing. Of course if you cut something which exerts little to no force on a blade then the blade can't skew because of uneven force distribution as a sum of two uneven nothings is still nothing.

You can also hollow grind dual ground blades if you want to reduce friction, that is the way Alvin makes his skinners and butcher knives and as I noted you keep the edge symmetrical by simply swaping initial sides when you sharpen from one session to the next.

You can also get the same built in angle guide if you zero v-grind, this isn't something particular to chisel grinds.

-Cliff
 
I have made lots of chisel ground knives and like the style but at the moment I have also been using a modified style that I call Full Flat Chisel - a full flat ground and sharpened on one side only.
Regarding its use, I believe it is mostly a problem of perception and habit than anything else. I am ambidextrous and use an BM CQC-7 with both hands for the same results, as well as one of my knives with the grind on the other side. But then, years playing with chisel ground bladesd every day should make a difference...
Anyway, who said knife blades should be symmetrical? For everybody who has never tried a chisel ground blade, I strongly suggest that you pick one and give it a try before forming your opinion - you will be pleasantly surprised.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
This isn't a binding material.

You can also hollow grind dual ground blades if you want to reduce friction,

You can also get the same built in angle guide if you zero v-grind, this isn't something particular to chisel grinds.

-Cliff
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I wouldn't know a material which binds more that meat or fish? And it doesn't have to be binding forces. Cabbage or squash binds very little and it is very difficult to get a straight cut through it with a chisel grind. Big surprise, after all the blade essentially bows to one side.

Of course you can double hollow grind to minimize binding, you can even double convex with a median ridge, which is the geometry of a katana for this exact reason. There are many ways to slice a cake. But only in the chisel grind you get the wedging on one side with reduced friction on the other. Again suitable only for certain particular purposes.

Sure you get the same sharpening benefits in a double v to zero edge except for the burr cut of, which is particularly easy, I find at least, because the blade "bows" in the direction of the burr formation, but I agree that you could achieve the same, by lifting the blade a little from the bevel when cutting off the burr on a double v. I would still think that holding the knife while sharpening would be much less arkward in the chisel grind since for a total 20 deg (actually, my usuba was more in the range of 15) included angle you are holding the knife at 20 deg, while you have to work much closer to the stone at a double bevel at 10 deg each side.

Hey, I don't want to defend the chisel grind. I like it in the kitchen and it has its uses and benefits, but in a utility or folding knife, I prefer full flat. And of course symmetry has the benefit of versatility. It can replace a chisel grind blade, even if it may not be as suited to the task, while the other way round is not the case.

Blade two: Yes I was aware of that, that's why I got a left handed friend of mine a Messermeister instead of a Masahiro. Thanks for the info though!
 
Personally, I have a preference for other types of grind. Professionally however, I confess that chisel grind has its uses. Bearing that in mind, I do keep a few blades that have chisel grind.

An occasion will crop up in future when such a grind can be put to good use.

;) :)
 
HoB said:
I wouldn't know a material which binds more that meat or fish?
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I think we are using the same term for two different things, I mean that the material is capable of exerting high wedging forces on the knife like a turnip.

But only in the chisel grind you get the wedging on one side with reduced friction on the other.
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You can actually just turn a v-ground blade to present the same profile to the material.

I would still think that holding the knife while sharpening would be much less arkward in the chisel grind
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You should have a look at one of Alvin's knives, you put it right on the stone, there is no angle to hold at all. They are v-ground hollow/flat.

Picture a full hollow ground knife with a v-bevel applied right over the top which forms the edge, 6-8 degrees per side.

About the easiest thing to hold an angle with, no burr either as the steel is 63-66 HRC, 1095, M2 or O1.

You can also get rid of the angle holding if you convex on a soft medium, use a jig, sharpmaker, etc. .

None of this means that I don't like chisel blades, I have a number which I enjoy quite well, and a number more I would like to have.

I can't imagine a lot of people who would turn down one of R.J. Martin's knives.

-Cliff
 
Hey Cliff...

How do you control scratching on the face of the blade, if you hold the face right onto the stone ?

Or does it matter ??

Do you have any pictures or a link to alvins knives ??

They sound like they are really thin blades.. I like a really thin, but wide kitchen knife..

ttyle

Eric...
 
Yes, Cliff, do you have a link for Alvin's knives, that sounds really like something I would like to take a closer look at. Are they "affordable"?

Thanks!
 
The blade gets really scratched up, it isn't about looks, he describes them as ugly though I think they actually look pretty nice, but then again I tend to see performance when I look at a knife more than anything anyway.

He had a website, I checked it isn't there now, he hangs out on rec.knives. He is a hobbiest maker, I don't know if he even actually sells his knives. Him, Mike Swaim and Joe Talmadge are the basic holy trinity of knife performance.

Here is a really crappy shot of a paring knife :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/aj_paring_side.jpg

Full hollow grind super imposed with a flat to the edge grind.

-Cliff
 
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