NYC, MANHATTAN question...

Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Messages
1,315
hey guys, i live in manhattan (ny, ny) and im wondering about a RC-3.. i just ordered one and itll be here on monday.. i was thinking on carrying it as an EDC, of corse it'd be concealed as in nyc all knives put be.. but would it be LEGAL.. suppose a NYC officer pulles my over for a normal frisk, just a RANDOM stop but happened to find it on my person.. would i be penalized for it? or would it be considered legal and i'd be free to go?

From my interpretation of the lawbooks if it isn't able to be opened by one hand.. i .e a folder.. which this isn't.. and the blade has to be under 4 inches... which the Rc-3 is... well and i'd conceal it cause u have too here.. and also it dosn't technicaly lock open as its a fixed.. as locks aren't legal here in nyc..

so am i wrong anywhere here? or if a cop happened to find me with it would i be in the clear? thanks again!

thanks guys...
 
Your only concern should be the dirk, dagger and dangerous knife part of the law. I do not know this model, but if the blade is weapon like by design ( bagger, tanto, double edge) then it could be considered illegal. The main question is why you carry it? Use as a weapon including self defense makes it a weapon and therefore illegal. If it is not a weapon like design, and you state a lawfully ( non weapon) reason for carrying it, then you should be fine. Always remember the NYPD has been trained and encouraged to make arrests for weapons and let the courts decided what it right or wrong....
 
In theory the worst that could happen is it would be seized. That could happen w/ any knife anywhere. The physical description of the knife sounds legit. With that being the case, even if you stated to LE that it was intended for lawful SD, the most they could do is arrest you. The State still has to prove intent to use unlawfully if the only reason the knife might be illegal is your statement. All knives are utility tools and that is all.

This from People vs Anthony Richards where defendent was arrested based solely on his admission that a small fixed blade knife in his possession was "...for my protection"

Defendant protests that the weapon charge is nevertheless insufficient, since, he argues, his statement establishes only a lawful intent.   And certainly, if defendant intended to use the knife solely in self-defense, he would not be guilty of the crime charged...

You may, however, in determining whether or not the defendant had the intent required for this crime consider the following:  The use of a (dangerous knife) to engage in conduct that is justifiable under the law is not unlawful.   Thus, an intent to use a (dangerous knife) against another justifiably is not an intent to use it unlawfully.   Therefore, to find the defendant guilty of this crime, you must find beyond a reasonable doubt that (the defendant) possessed the (dangerous knife) with the intent to use it against another unlawfully and not solely with the intent to use it justifiably”] ).

You should be fine w/ it, just keep it concealed when not being used for lawful purposes (whatever that's supposed to mean - can you cut an apple in public with it?).

HH
 
Hi stg244,
I believe the RC-3 to be perfectly legal based on the wording of the law and your lawful intent however I think you may have problems if it is found on you. I only carry mine when working inside the house or when I go camping/fishing outside of the city.

Hi Tom,
If it helps, the RC-3 looks something like this. It will have either a black blade with a grayish micarta handle, tan blade with canvas micarta handle pictured below, or a green blade with an orange g10 handle. It has a drop point blade under 4". There are clip point versions too with a swedge as well as a "Military" model as well. I think that someone would have a harder time with one of these as opposed to the "normal" model.
IMG_0486.jpg
 
That looks like a good EDC to me as it is not weapon like by design. Of course a non locking small folder is better still.... The case site above is very interesting (People vs Anthony Richards). Was it a lower court case?
 
Last edited:
I read the case determinations and want to share them you all of you. Please read this and you will see how CLEAR the law is ( Or how clear it is not):

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/nyc-criminal-court/1028578.html

In re reading this case, and having a ADA friend read it too, it would seem that the weapons charge is still in effect and this is a lower court case, so there is no "case law" set by it. The judge states the jury would have to decide if the People can meet the proof of intent, and that since self defense is a justisication for the use of force that has to be reviewed in a case by case manner, the fact that the subject charged with possession states he would only use it for a lawful reason, it still does not prevent the weapons charge from moving forward. If anyone reads the whole case and all the other cases sited, and feels he can now clearly understand what is legal in the State of NY, then my hat is off to you! It is so vague that almost any knife can be determined to be either legal or not, however, the challenges to the law being unconstitutional unclear have failed in every singe case....with the NYPD feeling all knives are bad, I can only say beware....
 
Last edited:
No, I certainly cannot understand what exactly is legal in NY. What does become obvious when one starts to look into the case law, is that the police, DA, and - God help us - some judges do not either. The wording of the law is fairly clear, what is not clear is how so many generations of police and DAs could have or been allowed to twist and misinterpret it to the point where they might as well be making things up as they go. It would appear that carrying a knife for lawful SD is legitimate - protected activity under the law, provided you make it perfectly clear that you only intend to use it for lawful SD, but the knife cannot be manufactured or modified specifically for fighting. After reading all of the available literature on People vs Richards (and being unable to find the eventual outcome), unless your choice of EDC knife is blatantly illegal (switchblade, push knife, double edged, ballistic, and the not-so-clear gravity knife) one can and should fight any possession charge.

At the heart of things is this from the Penal Code section 265.15-4 and how it should be enforced.
4. ... The possession by any person of any dagger, dirk, stiletto, dangerous knife or any other weapon, instrument, appliance or substance designed, made or adapted for use primarily as a weapon, is presumptive evidence of intent to use the same unlawfully against another.

Which would seem to be unconstitutional and unconstitutionally vague, and to subvert the wording of 265.01-2

2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon with intent to use the same unlawfully against another

Adding to the insanity of the NYS legal system Upstate vs Downstate, a local man was just found not guilty not only of murder, but of any possession charges despite carrying an assisted-opening liner lock that he stated was for general use and self protection. Bottom line = South of route 84 and certainly by the time one gets to Yonkers your rights, including a presumption of innocence are null and void.
 
Interesting case you stated about the upstate matter. Assisted openers are legal by the switchblade definition wording, but are they designed as weapons? I say not, but over the years I have showed them to about 50 different officers and none thought they were legal, and all but one clearly thought they were switchblades. I actually bought some of those $3 wholesale China AOs and gave them to several officers as gifts, so they could explain and show othesr why they are not switchblades. The self defense statement will almost always get you arrested and most likely will not be dropped due to the self defense claim. Always remember that self defense involves you admitting you took action against another person under the belief you did so as a last resort. In NYS there are only five clear times deadly force can be used by a non LEO: Arson, rape, robbery, murder and attempted murder. A break in of your home still needs an elimate of self defense in it or the fact that a larceny became a robbery.
What should scare everyone the most, is how long a thought process was taken to answer the simple question of a knife being legal or not. This is a misd charge and the judge wrote a small novel on the issue. He reasoned all angles to a end that he concluded seemed sound to him based on other past cases.....makes you not want to carry anything in NY right?
 
I carry a CRK Professional Soldier every day and have had zero issues. Of course I also had zero issues in the 6 months I carried an Umnumzaan. I wouldn't fret too much about what you're carrying, though a ESEE-3 might be a tad on the larger side.
 
Hey josh, honestly the eese-3 isn't "large" enough to be considered illegal as its blade is 3 3/8's long and the legal limit is 4 inchs here in NYC..
anyway the blade dosn't look "threataning" to me... and im gana make sure to put some hard usage on it when i co camping.. so if a cop ever does stop and finds it on me
ill just tell him, i use it as a utility knife at work... cut boxes, cut rope things like that... if he asks..
thanks for the comments!, keep em coming!...

p.s. i work as a super intendant/ porter along with have a construction job... so i think it shouldn't be an issue, but would a LEO on the street ask where i worked?... thanks again!
 
Interesting case you stated about the upstate matter. Assisted openers are legal by the switchblade definition wording, but are they designed as weapons? I say not, but over the years I have showed them to about 50 different officers and none thought they were legal, and all but one clearly thought they were switchblades. I actually bought some of those $3 wholesale China AOs and gave them to several officers as gifts, so they could explain and show othesr why they are not switchblades. The self defense statement will almost always get you arrested and most likely will not be dropped due to the self defense claim. Always remember that self defense involves you admitting you took action against another person under the belief you did so as a last resort. In NYS there are only five clear times deadly force can be used by a non LEO: Arson, rape, robbery, murder and attempted murder. A break in of your home still needs an elimate of self defense in it or the fact that a larceny became a robbery.
What should scare everyone the most, is how long a thought process was taken to answer the simple question of a knife being legal or not. This is a misd charge and the judge wrote a small novel on the issue. He reasoned all angles to a end that he concluded seemed sound to him based on other past cases.....makes you not want to carry anything in NY right?

Actually, it makes me not want to cooperate w/ LE accept for the bare legal minimum. If they want to boost their career arrest numbers, they can do it without my help. If Richards had kept his mouth shut, he (supposedly) wouldn't have been arrested. I don't believe that for a minute, what I do believe is that this case has some peculiarities that caused it to generate some minor legal opinions re instructions to the jury (notice no mention is made of throwing the case out despite the fact that the charges have no standing without the defendant's verbal response, and no real chance of going forward without additional evidence. Apparently the judge is willing to allow the DA a roll of the dice with this man's future).

With all due respect, the statement requiring an element of personal danger to terminate a burglary is not supported by the Penal Code. The fact that a perpetrator is willing to enter a dwelling to commit a crime carries with it an assumption that the occupants are in danger. The homeowner isn't required to make a clear determination of whether the intruder is armed, what their real intent is etc. If you're both there at the same time, it automatically becomes a burglary opposed to a larceny. Unless circumstances are such that it is obvious the intruder is not dangerous, one can assume that they are - inside a dwelling or a shed/garage directly attached to a dwelling. Any burglar that doesn't immediately flee upon discovery is putting themself in legit, mortal danger.

Deadly physical force can also be used to effect the apprehension of someone under certain circumstances, even if the actor is no longer in direct physical danger.

I agree that admitting you carry a knife as opposed to a pepper spray or a legally licensed concealed handgun (!!??) for self protection could (will) get you arrested, getting a conviction is going to require some convincing arguments about the physical characteristics of the knife in question and the circumstances surrounding the arrest - at least if the actual wording of the law counts for anything. By simply keeping one's mouth shut, or saying you carry a knife for general utility, one should avoid any harassment from LE provided the knife in question isn't overtly built as a weapon (whatever that standard could encompass), and you aren't engaged in any other questionable activity.

Again, it makes me not want to carry anything to close to NYC, clearly the farther one gets from Downstate, the more rights one has.

HH
 
In the exact wording of the law, you would be correct about the burglary of a home not needing more to justify the use of deadly force as my memory on that one must be getting old....here is the link of what you can do for those interested in the law, however remember these items may not prevent you from getting arrested, but they allow for your defense of your actions:
http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.htm
 
Hey sorry to step in your thread but I live in NYC and I have a question about the amount of knives you can carry. I usually carry a Spyderco Terzuola SLIPIT and a Spyderco Kiwi 3 in stag as my edc. I just order two more slip joint knives the Boker plus XS and the Case sob buster. I plan to carring three of these knives in both pockets and one in my bag along with a multi-tool. But I'm a little nervous because I take the subway every day and transfer in Grand Central Station where I see the NYPD search people and their bags every day. Is three legal knives and a multi-tool too much to carry in NYC?:confused:
 
Hi bxsickness, I don't recall seeing a limit to how many knives you can carry in the state or city laws. As long as each one is legal on its own you should be ok. I carry 3 usually (3rd being a small vic on the keys but it counts!!) and haven't had any issues. I haven't been stopped and searched either though.
 
Hi bxsickness, I don't recall seeing a limit to how many knives you can carry in the state or city laws. As long as each one is legal on its own you should be ok. I carry 3 usually (3rd being a small vic on the keys but it counts!!) and haven't had any issues. I haven't been stopped and searched either though.

Thanx for the info 2Dead. I'll breath easier..lol BTW what are the other two knives. Just curious.;)
 
The other 2 are usually traditional slip joints or 1 traditional and 1 SAK. Maybe a Spyderco UKPK without the clip. I'll keep my fixed blades and locking folders at home until some common sense prevails or I move elsewhere.
 
Hey guys, sometimes i attend formal dinners or go places with freinds that ive not been too, and dont know whether or not you need to pass some metal detectors or what-not... but to cut it short, i'd like to have a slip-joint knife, incase i go out with them somewhere again, so my head is rested that the knife i have is legal, so NAMES NAMES NAMES... lol nice slip-joint knives (keep in mind i like carbon fibor handles)
my B-day is comin up next month, so it'd be a good time to get it... btw its gata be legal for NYC so if a cop found it here hes have no problem with it...
 
Well, Spyderco makes the Terzoula and UKPK slipits with carbon fiber scales. Should be legal but can't promise all cops will be ok with them. I'm not sure of any production traditional slip joints with carbon fiber if that's what you are looking for. You could also go custom. I'm sure there are a bunch of makers here who could help you out.
 
2dead, ive seen the ukpk, and i really really like the looks of it, considering my b-day is in a month, well i can see myself getting it ;) haha..and yes thank you very much for replying.. and yes i waslooking for Carbon fiber handles... like em much better then g-10 or zytel.. they just look fabulous ;) anyway thanks guys!
 
In the exact wording of the law, you would be correct about the burglary of a home not needing more to justify the use of deadly force as my memory on that one must be getting old....here is the link of what you can do for those interested in the law, however remember these items may not prevent you from getting arrested, but they allow for your defense of your actions:
http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.htm

I hope this isn't too far off topic, but I had a question on this excerpt below.

"3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to
be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that
another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such
dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other
person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to
prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such
burglary."


Lets say for example someone broke a window and appeared to be entering my home. Would deadly force then be legal? I would think someone would need to enter your dwelling to use deadly force, but thats not what I get from reading this.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top