NYC, MANHATTAN question...

jaymeister99 said:
I hope this isn't too far off topic, but I had a question on this excerpt below.

"3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to
be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that
another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such
dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other
person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to
prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such
burglary."

Lets say for example someone broke a window and appeared to be entering my home. Would deadly force then be legal? I would think someone would need to enter your dwelling to use deadly force, but thats not what I get from reading this.
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That's definitely off topic, but from the wording of the code:

when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to
prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such
burglary."
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Every situation is different, but technically you absolutely can use deadly force to repel someone attempting to enter your home. A local man did exactly that a while back when someone was trying to break into his house and he responded with a 12 ga - no charges filed. In fact courts have ruled that any structure directly attached to your dwelling counts as well, like an attached garage. As long as there's a way to gain entry to the dwelling parts of the structure from the outbuilding they're one and the same.

HH
 
HeavyHanded said:
Every situation is different, but technically you absolutely can use deadly force to repel someone attempting to enter your home. A local man did exactly that a while back when someone was trying to break into his house and he responded with a 12 ga - no charges filed. In fact courts have ruled that any structure directly attached to your dwelling counts as well, like an attached garage. As long as there's a way to gain entry to the dwelling parts of the structure from the outbuilding they're one and the same.
HH
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Reminds me of a story I read a while back. A burglar entered through a garage window and broke a leg when he hit the floor. He then was stuck in the garage for a week (the homeowners were on vacation). He survived on dog food, soda and rainwater(?). The family came home and called the cops, he was arrested. The burglar then sued the homeowners. He won the case! Wish I could remember how much he got. Only in NY!

Sometimes I wonder if the criminals have more rights.
 
They should have hit him over the head with a spade and then called the cops.

Related story, an old buddy of mine was working 3rd shift and saw someone trying to climb into his neighbor's kitchen window - lower sill about 6' off the ground. Perp is going slow trying to get his hips through the window. Buddy calls the cops and then walks over and stuffs the barrel of his rifle up the perp's behind "so far you couldn't see the front sight anymore" and tells him not to move. Perp goes limp and my buddy gets a commendation from the responding deputy. Also in NY. You just never know what you're going to get.

HH
 
HeavyHanded said:
They should have hit him over the head with a spade and then called the cops.
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I was thinking they should have shot him and then called the cops. But then he probably would have survived that too and sued em for more.

I like what your buddy did! That perp is lucky he didn't wind up with lead poisoning too.
 
HeavyHanded said:
They should have hit him over the head with a spade and then called the cops.

Related story, an old buddy of mine was working 3rd shift and saw someone trying to climb into his neighbor's kitchen window - lower sill about 6' off the ground. Perp is going slow trying to get his hips through the window. Buddy calls the cops and then walks over and stuffs the barrel of his rifle up the perp's behind "so far you couldn't see the front sight anymore" and tells him not to move. Perp goes limp and my buddy gets a commendation from the responding deputy. Also in NY. You just never know what you're going to get.

HH
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Your friend is fortunate that New York, unlike Massachusetts, does not require a gun permit (issued completely at the discretion of local police chiefs to "suitable persons" and subject to revocation for any reason) just to keep a long gun at home. If he would have given the intruder a rectal exam with a rifle or shotgun barrel here in MA, the local police chief would have immediately declared him "not a suitable person" and yanked the permit. Usually, the police just show up, hand the chief's revocation letter to the gun owner, and proceed to confiscate the permit and the guns. And, yes, there is a strong likelihood that the intruder would sue the homeowner!
 
I dont beleive that there is one LEO in NYC who wouldnt take that RC-3 off your persons, especially if was a random frisk.
 
TOM1960 said:
Your friend is fortunate that New York, unlike Massachusetts, does not require a gun permit (issued completely at the discretion of local police chiefs to "suitable persons" and subject to revocation for any reason) just to keep a long gun at home. If he would have given the intruder a rectal exam with a rifle or shotgun barrel here in MA, the local police chief would have immediately declared him "not a suitable person" and yanked the permit. Usually, the police just show up, hand the chief's revocation letter to the gun owner, and proceed to confiscate the permit and the guns. And, yes, there is a strong likelihood that the intruder would sue the homeowner!
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If that happened in downstate NY it would have been a different story. I wouldn't be suprised if the cops would try to arrest the buddy if that happened in NYC or LI.

But upstate, its a different world. A few more people up there still have some clue what the Second Amendment is.
 
HeavyHanded said:
That's definitely off topic, but from the wording of the code:



Every situation is different, but technically you absolutely can use deadly force to repel someone attempting to enter your home. A local man did exactly that a while back when someone was trying to break into his house and he responded with a 12 ga - no charges filed. In fact courts have ruled that any structure directly attached to your dwelling counts as well, like an attached garage. As long as there's a way to gain entry to the dwelling parts of the structure from the outbuilding they're one and the same.

HH
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You can use deadly force against someone entering your home/property, ONLY if you are in reasonable fear for your life or safety. You cannot just kill someone for entering your property or dwelling, even if they are there to steal from you. There has to be an extenuating circumstance to have made you fear for your life at the hands of the perp.
 
You are incorrect sir, the wording of the code is quite clear. Burglary of an occupied structure is viewed as justification for the use of deadly force.

This is directly from the penal code:
A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to
be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that
another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such
dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other
person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to
prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such
burglary."
Click to expand...

There are no qualifiers concerning personal threats to life or limb. Someone burglarizing a dwelling is already assumed to be such a threat if they do not flee immediately. There is no duty to retreat etc, though a verbal challenge might be in order to CYA. As I said, every situation is different. This is a frequently misunderstood part of the penal code, but the wording is very clear.

HH
 
I dono guys... these laws here in NYC are KILLER... practically every knife besides an SAK is illegal... and there are only 7 ways to get a CCWP... (6 of em u cant even carry the gun on your person 24/7)
1 of them (retired cop)... u can.... luckily im aiming to become a cop.. (not for this reason lol) just happened to be like that :).. which is obviously good...

Hmm.. any1 know of any place where the laws are really light.. and if a cop saw u with a knife/ gun on ur person he wouldn't really bother ya.. (unlesss u were poppin shots off in the air ;) =p )

Maybe also good surroundings for camping and hiking trips... maybe even hunting and fishing too....

those are all the things i love to do.. yet i live in NYC , where i can do none of them =D... although living here also ROCKS for many different reasons.. it also SUCKS for others...

im thinking about buying a house somewhere else later on, down the line.. maybe to spend like 4 months outa the year there.. and the rest back here in NYC.. and on long holidays... go out there...

i dono just a thought.. any1 doing this type of thing..? or know a good place..? Not WAAAAY too far.. like a 24 hour plane ride =p..
 
I am a former NYC LEO and have been looking at a second house in NH for all the reasons you listed plus a few more. Five hour drive to a place were you still have the rights our fathers fought for.....NYC today is not the NYC of a few years back. The little king in charge does not care about your rights, and the bulk of the people who live here don't seem to care that they have lost their rights for many things due to his methods. This forum is about knife law, and I try to stay on tract, but let me tell you NYC has become the most oppressive government in the US by far, and this goes well beyond the weapons laws we discuss here. I have lived/worked all of my 51 years in NYC and I can't wait to get out of it, and I am saying this even thought I personally have not been the victim of the unfair laws and uneven enforcment. I say this because our laws should always reflect our rights and be evenly enforced to all persons, but they are not. Don't think the NYPD is behind all the evil that goes on, because many officers hate their jobs due to the things they are forced to do. My son is in college and wants to be an officer someday too, and although I have great contacts in the NYPD, I truly don't want him involved with the department as it is run today......
 
hey Tom..or anybody else for that matter... i just ordered a Sm. Sebenza 21.. if i EDC it and im in NYC... if i get searched for any reason.. do ya think they'll take it, and thats the end of my 21? i worried more about loosing somethin thats $400 =p haha.. then gettin a lil slap on the rist...

the blade isn't huge or anything.. although since its a gravity knife =/

Hmmm.. ill be working construction over the summer.. how about if im carrying it then..? on the job.. or on the way..?
 
This type of knife can be flicked open as they are very smooth opening and well made. I suggest you not carrying it, but if you do then do not carry it exposed. Yes there is an exception from the NYC Admin Code for workers carrying a knife exposed to and from work, but that does NOT cover a gravity knife. The law has been up held to allow for any flickable knife to be a gravity knife, and the fact your costs $400 will not mean anything to most officers. Last week in a Pct in Brooklyn North, a constrction worker was arrested for having a box cutter. the DA declined to move forward ( DPed the case). The officers were retrained not to arrest a constrution worker for a box cutter again.....
 
I live in NYC and there is no way in heck I'd carry that thing. Frankly, the idea is preposterous to me.

I've never been "frisked" and I don't worry about the legalities of things. That said, I also go out of my way to give no excuse to be hassled, should I ever end up on someone's radar. And carrying an RC-3 around in a dense urban jungle is the opposite approach. It's just begging for trouble as far as I'm concerned.

Put yourself in some cop's shoes -- one who is not knife friendly and maybe wants a collar badly, you know, b/c the stats are in need of a boost. Imagine how you would perceive this knife if you found it on someone. You'd want a very good explanation for why you're carrying it, and it'd need to be work-related -- otherwise, the default view is probably going to be "it's a weapon."

Think about it -- what logical reason are you going to tell a cop that you need a fixed blade, apart from work? And if you're not on your way to or from said work, well ...

It doesn't matter your intent or what you say it is -- it matters what they THINK your intent is.

OK, so you could get frisked by someone who is understanding. Or you could never get frisked in all of your years of walking the planet. But why risk it?

Ask yourself why you want to carry this knife? If the reason is worth it, then go for it.

My understanding is, regardless of the letter of the law, if NYC cops THINK anything on you is a weapon, then it is and you can get in trouble for it. That is my own personal view that I base my behavior on, after reading lots of posts and news stories online about knife-related arrests in NYC. I am not a legal expert.
 
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i honestly am in school, (going to study criminal law) and become a cop in NYC myself... i cant wait ... im gana be one of those guys who say, "excuse me, whats that clip in your pocket sir?"

"uhh a benchmade 710"...

"let me see it, nice blade, one of my favs!, have a nice day".. (hands back the knife and walks away) =D haha...
 
tom19176 said:
This type of knife can be flicked open as they are very smooth opening and well made. I suggest you not carrying it, but if you do then do not carry it exposed. Yes there is an exception from the NYC Admin Code for workers carrying a knife exposed to and from work, but that does NOT cover a gravity knife. The law has been up held to allow for any flickable knife to be a gravity knife, and the fact your costs $400 will not mean anything to most officers. Last week in a Pct in Brooklyn North, a constrction worker was arrested for having a box cutter. the DA declined to move forward ( DPed the case). The officers were retrained not to arrest a constrution worker for a box cutter again.....
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i honestly cant believe that they arrested a construction worker with a box cutter.. wtf...
 
NeoClassic said:
I live in NYC and there is no way in heck I'd carry that thing. Frankly, the idea is preposterous to me.

I've never been "frisked" and I don't worry about the legalities of things. That said, I also go out of my way to give no excuse to be hassled, should I ever end up on someone's radar. And carrying an RC-3 around in a dense urban jungle is the opposite approach. It's just begging for trouble as far as I'm concerned.

Put yourself in some cop's shoes -- one who is not knife friendly and maybe wants a collar badly, you know, b/c the stats are in need of a boost. Imagine how you would perceive this knife if you found it on someone. You'd want a very good explanation for why you're carrying it, and it'd need to be work-related -- otherwise, the default view is probably going to be "it's a weapon."

Think about it -- what logical reason are you going to tell a cop that you need a fixed blade, apart from work? And if you're not on your way to or from said work, well ...

It doesn't matter your intent or what you say it is -- it matters what they THINK your intent is.

OK, so you could get frisked by someone who is understanding. Or you could never get frisked in all of your years of walking the planet. But why risk it?

Ask yourself why you want to carry this knife? If the reason is worth it, then go for it.

My understanding is, regardless of the letter of the law, if NYC cops THINK anything on you is a weapon, then it is and you can get in trouble for it. That is my own personal view that I base my behavior on, after reading lots of posts and news stories online about knife-related arrests in NYC. I am not a legal expert.
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I love New York ... and i intend to be a cop but these laws FREAKING suck...

Could anybody tell me... (tom?) when im a cop, will i be able to carry any knife like a sebenza off-duty..?

and could i possibly obtain a CCWP for a sig or 1911? and carry it off duty...?

and NH... thats not a bad idea... 5 hr ride for all the freedom you should recieve... sounds good to me...

Its really odd how everything i love in life... knives/hunting/guns/ fishing.. is so far away from this place =p...

and i hear ya man! about the laws... honestly i opted to not carry the EESE.. its a bit bigger then i thought...

I dont think im going to carry the sebenza on me while i go out on the streets.. it'll always be in my pocket in the house and stuff though...

ill just rock my sage 1 or spydi tenacious as an edc...

If cops found me with it?... whats the worst... if i was just frisked and they stumbled upon it... they'd take it.. and a fine?..

ALSO i have a spyderco dragon fly ALWAYS chained to my key ring with my keys... do you think if they happened to find this.... they'd have a big issue...?
 
I will give you a couple of quick answers.....As a NYPD officer you can buy any legal handgun and have it listed on your ten card that shows you legally own it. You can only use a firearm that has been approved for you to carry and you have been tested with at the range if you want the city to back you up when you lawfully use it taking police action. Don't risk any knife arrest as they will greatly hurt you law enforcement future. The exposed knife on you key change is a bad idea also as it is a violation of the NYC Admin code 10-133 and that becomes something that is looked for near the end of the month.
 
Alright, thanks man.. i guess ill be taking it off (keychain)... and instead ill carry a Letherman juice s2 on me... its blade would be legal in nyc.. (im pretty sure) as it dosn't lock open... or flip open..

Thanks for the help tom ...

since the S2 is a multi-tool would there be a problem carrying it on my belt.. in a sheath.? or would be that "exposed" aswell..
 
Welcome to NY - where law abiding citizens have their rights stripped and criminals run wild entering and exiting the Corrections Dept on a daily basis
 
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