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Observations on reprofiling S30V
- Thread starter dsvirsky
- Start date
In what pray tell?
Hey dude just messing with you!
I got my room booked for the Vegas Classic. See you in January!
Boy someone's got his panties in a twist. I sympathisize with Mr. Mayo, a lot of theory gets sloshed around here as fact, more so by some people than others.
However, Mr. Brogan, cliff's concept is a theory. You and cliff are taking observations and applying a theoretical cause. Just because the theory matches your limited observations, doesn't make your theory correct. Maybe your steeling phenomena is just a symptom of poor sharpening technique, poor heat treat or poor steel, and not small chipping due to blade realignment. I steel kitchen knives all the time, sooner or later they need a higher level of sharpening, but under my 20X loop they show no pitting. Does this disprove your theory? Maybe not, since it's a different steel. In addition, when I read this thread, I don't see complete agreement with your scenario.
One observation, one knife, low power magnification, does not prove a sharpening theory. Never will. Neither will a preponderance of anectdotal evidence.
However, Mr. Brogan, cliff's concept is a theory. You and cliff are taking observations and applying a theoretical cause. Just because the theory matches your limited observations, doesn't make your theory correct. Maybe your steeling phenomena is just a symptom of poor sharpening technique, poor heat treat or poor steel, and not small chipping due to blade realignment. I steel kitchen knives all the time, sooner or later they need a higher level of sharpening, but under my 20X loop they show no pitting. Does this disprove your theory? Maybe not, since it's a different steel. In addition, when I read this thread, I don't see complete agreement with your scenario.
One observation, one knife, low power magnification, does not prove a sharpening theory. Never will. Neither will a preponderance of anectdotal evidence.
Cliff Stamp
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Alacran :
Use a cheap coarse abrasive and hogg the edge off my hand to under 15 degrees per side. Now use the spyderco rods at 15 degrees to apply a small secondary edge bevel, this should take 10-20 seconds. Change 15 to 20 in both cases if you want a more robust edge for cutting metals.
tom mayo :
You can see this readily with a cheap 10x magnifier, look straight down at a slightly blunted edge, you will notice it is wavy showing considerable defomation. Now give it 1-2 passes on a fine rod, the waves are gone. The edge has been honed by deformation with little to no wear (virtually no wear would be achieved using a smooth steel with the same process).
It is also of course not a theory that bending metal weakens it dramatically in that plane, this can be seen by bending a sheet of paper (or metal of course if you don't want to extrapolate the basic principle but it is the same in most cases and everyone has a sheet of paper handy). Now take the metal and bend it back and forth and you will notice it will eventually rips and tear. Now ask anyone who works with metal if this is a new theory you have discovered.
thombrogan :
Yeah, there is a section called "Why does my knife go dull so fast?", this note needs to be added. This is usually the most important section of any guide as it is always the one that you go to first because everyone only reads the instructions when something is broken or doesn't work.
To be clear, I got the idea from Phil Wilson. I was losing edge retention with repeating rod honing of his customand he immediately knew it needed a fresh edge as the metal was weak and the carbides rounded. This isn't of course a problem with S30V specifically, but is much more common with high wear resistant steels in general for obvious reasons.
tom mayo :
You have no experience with the problem with a certain technique when you don't use that technique and in fact your technique is actually an application of the proposed solution to the problem. That isn't much of a surprise.
I don't have a any problem with heat stroke in Newfoundland. This of course doesn't mean that I think heatstroke is only a theory.
[for those of you who took the short bus to school or had to wear a helment a lot as a kid when you were not on a bike - it doesn't get very hot here, unless you are a woolly mammoth in which case you might find it a bit hot - but its a dry heat].
brownshoe :
Of course, kitchen knives are usually made out of very ductile steels and cut very soft materials and thus blunt by deformation (really slowly at that).
-Cliff
Use a cheap coarse abrasive and hogg the edge off my hand to under 15 degrees per side. Now use the spyderco rods at 15 degrees to apply a small secondary edge bevel, this should take 10-20 seconds. Change 15 to 20 in both cases if you want a more robust edge for cutting metals.
tom mayo :
You can see this readily with a cheap 10x magnifier, look straight down at a slightly blunted edge, you will notice it is wavy showing considerable defomation. Now give it 1-2 passes on a fine rod, the waves are gone. The edge has been honed by deformation with little to no wear (virtually no wear would be achieved using a smooth steel with the same process).
It is also of course not a theory that bending metal weakens it dramatically in that plane, this can be seen by bending a sheet of paper (or metal of course if you don't want to extrapolate the basic principle but it is the same in most cases and everyone has a sheet of paper handy). Now take the metal and bend it back and forth and you will notice it will eventually rips and tear. Now ask anyone who works with metal if this is a new theory you have discovered.
thombrogan :
Yeah, there is a section called "Why does my knife go dull so fast?", this note needs to be added. This is usually the most important section of any guide as it is always the one that you go to first because everyone only reads the instructions when something is broken or doesn't work.
To be clear, I got the idea from Phil Wilson. I was losing edge retention with repeating rod honing of his customand he immediately knew it needed a fresh edge as the metal was weak and the carbides rounded. This isn't of course a problem with S30V specifically, but is much more common with high wear resistant steels in general for obvious reasons.
tom mayo :
You have no experience with the problem with a certain technique when you don't use that technique and in fact your technique is actually an application of the proposed solution to the problem. That isn't much of a surprise.
I don't have a any problem with heat stroke in Newfoundland. This of course doesn't mean that I think heatstroke is only a theory.
[for those of you who took the short bus to school or had to wear a helment a lot as a kid when you were not on a bike - it doesn't get very hot here, unless you are a woolly mammoth in which case you might find it a bit hot - but its a dry heat].
brownshoe :
Of course, kitchen knives are usually made out of very ductile steels and cut very soft materials and thus blunt by deformation (really slowly at that).
-Cliff
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The edges eventually chipped after several realignments. Are you suggesting that chipped edges cut in the same manner as unchipped edges?
Why is pitting mentioned? What does pitting have to do with what we're talking about?
Brownshoe,
When you have used a factory-fresh knife, with its original edge, and it has slightly dulled, and you touched it up with a light honing on fine abrasives, did you notice that it needed to be rehoned sooner than on edges that you had previously sharpened? Did it last longer between touch-up honings, or just the same? That is the essence of what I said that other people and I had noticed.
No, you don't. There are two who disagree. One, who touches up blades by regrinding them with two ceramic belts and a felt wheel and one person who is only disagreeing because Cliff Stamp posted here.
That's nice to know, but why are you sharing that? You and Mr. Mayo are talking about theories. Which theory is that? Everyone here was talking about sharpening, touch-up honing, full resharpening, and hones made of diamond and ceramic materials.
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OIC. Thanks.
Aha! I knew it! You've finally tipped your hand, Mr. Busse! My sister-in-law is from NewFoundland and high school acquaintances used to go there and bring back cassettes of A. Frank Willis' popular songs and skits, but they never mentioned dry air! You are Mr. Busse! That's why Sal Glesser is nice to you! That's why Phil Wilson shared his cryo-quenching method with you (knowing you'll be using INFI instead of S30V or S90V).
Just kidding.
For clarity, Mr. Brogan, the word pitting was used as a synonym for micro-chipping. The theory is the reason you and cliff give for the phenomena. Taking a wire and bending it back and forth to change the metal structure into a more crystalline form which breaks is a known phenomena. The theory comes when you apply that phenomena as a reason for your problems with maintaining the factory edge sharpness and durability. A simpler explanation is that with your hand tools you cannot obtain the same edge angle, with the same amount of precision accross the blade and the same level of polish. Maybe this is why your factory edge lasts longer and cannot be ressurected by your hand. I donno, just a theory.
By the way cliff, you seem to be taking a lower road on this thread, implying that some forum participants are mentally challenged (i.e. took the short bus) or mentally defective (wore a helmet). Has the wizard peaked around his curtain? Sometimes those that take the short bus are going to school for the gifted, or the catholic school. Sometimes those that wear helmets due so because car accidents have resulted in a plate in their head, which is unstable until the skull grows over the plate. By Mr. Brogran's remarks, i'd be more likely to assume that cliff is the readhead in Mr. Brogran's avatar and not Mr. Busse.
By the way cliff, you seem to be taking a lower road on this thread, implying that some forum participants are mentally challenged (i.e. took the short bus) or mentally defective (wore a helmet). Has the wizard peaked around his curtain? Sometimes those that take the short bus are going to school for the gifted, or the catholic school. Sometimes those that wear helmets due so because car accidents have resulted in a plate in their head, which is unstable until the skull grows over the plate. By Mr. Brogran's remarks, i'd be more likely to assume that cliff is the readhead in Mr. Brogran's avatar and not Mr. Busse.
The idea that a person cannot surpass a factory sharpening job is not necessarily fact. I have sharpened off factory edges for many years (as well as those applied by a lot of good knife makers) and have never had a problem surpassing the factory supplied edge. I doubt that I'm alone or unique in this experience. In probably 100% of the time, some cutler is hand applying the final edge on a belt or wheel, freehand, which must explain the uneven final edges that is seen on a lot of factory knives.
Let's face facts, there are a lot of people that can't sharpen knives well.....sharpening jigs and devices can help those folks, and do a good job for them.
Free hand sharpening, once learned properly can do the job every bit as good or better.
Thomas
Let's face facts, there are a lot of people that can't sharpen knives well.....sharpening jigs and devices can help those folks, and do a good job for them.
Free hand sharpening, once learned properly can do the job every bit as good or better.
Thomas
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Hey, leave me the heck out of this.-Tracey (Thom's blonde haired pregnant wife) The picture came out funny.
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On this forum, pitting is usually a type of corrosion associated with higher-chrome steels.
When I thoroughly resharpen my edges, instead of lightly hone them, I match or exceed the level of sharpness and I always exceed the durability. It took quite some time and error to develop my skills to this level and, while I have a long way to go, I'm proud of my sharpening ability and stand behind my work.
All of my plain edges rate highly on the Razor Edge Systems EdgeTester and all of my serrated edges shave fine hair off of my arms, even the short-lasting touch-up honed edges I mentioned. My edges match or surpass the factory edges, so that's not it.
Brownshoe, the facory edge lasts longer than the touched-up factory edge (in my case) and my resharpened edges last longer than the factory edges at a similar or higher level of sharpness and always at a higher level of polish. For your theory to be valid, it should describe what has been happening. The theory you say I've been implicitly using does describe what has been happening.
I'm disappointed to see that you've decided to be less than decent. You only came into this thread to jump down Mr. Stamp's throat and have added further offenses to manners. Since this thread started with S30V's responses to ceramic and diamond hones, please share your information on that topic.
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Brownshoe,
How have your experiences with reprofiling S30V blades been? Which methods worked best or worst for you?
How have your experiences with reprofiling S30V blades been? Which methods worked best or worst for you?
Cliff Stamp
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thombrogan :
Because I wrote it. In fact if you look at Tom's responce, it is clear that he isn't even arguing against what was said. Of course he isn't going to see a problem with a technique if he doesn't use that technique.
Because it was full of "Newfie Screech" vapors I would assume.
[in responce to Brownshoe]
Actually for Brownshoe to consider a theory to be valid it only has to be the opposite of whatever I have said (or what he reads which in general has little relation to what I actually wrote). The most amusing part is his repeated affirmations that he isn't going to reply any more to my posts which are quickly followed by more followup posts.
brownshoe :
Follow the logic :
1) deformation of metal weakens it, eventually leading to premature fracure
[this isn't because it becomes more crystalline, plastic deformation induces the formation of dislocations (which are actually imperfections or reduction in the perfection of the crystal structure) which create fault planes of greatly reduced tensile strength along the dislocation line (perpendicular to it the strength it actually increased this is the same effect which causes work hardening)]
It is also well known that :
2) steeling and related fine honing sharpen mainly by deformation
[this can easily be verified by methods describe in the above, plus should be be obvious anyway that such methods are not removing sigificant amounts of steel, I would doubt that even Brownshoe would argue you could reprofile an edge with a smooth steel]
yet the conclusion that :
3) steeling and related fine sharpening leave edges in weakend conditions which will eventually lead to premature fracture.
is dismissed as just a theory.
Can anyone else besides Tom and Brownshoe not see that 3) immediately follows from 1 & 2.
Problems with weakened factory edges, of similar conditions have been well known in general even with much simpler steels. See for example Jim Aston's work with a lot of puukkos and other such knives (including high end brands) who found that the factory edges are frequently commonly poor in regards to edge holding due to burred edges, burnt steel, or even geometrical factors such as hollows in the edge.
His conclusion after treating many such problems was the same as initially proposed by Thombrogan, give the initial edge a solid sharpening to remove any weakened metal and the edge should form crisp and stay sharp significantly longer. The same basic principle then extends to edges which have the same properties (weakened or worn metal) for other reasons, edges which get very hot in use, or suffer high impacts, or gets excessive corrosion, etc. .
This problem, and many others related to sharpening can be solved with a simple x10 magnifier, and no you don't need a highpowered scope. Deformation blunting and chipping and corrosion are sigificant effects as the 0.1 mm scale, if they only 0.01 mm in depth they would not be significant as that isn't even as large as the microteeth produced by many stones. It should follow easily that for the damage to be significant it can't be smaller in size than the already irregular nature of the surface.
-Cliff
Because I wrote it. In fact if you look at Tom's responce, it is clear that he isn't even arguing against what was said. Of course he isn't going to see a problem with a technique if he doesn't use that technique.
Because it was full of "Newfie Screech" vapors I would assume.
[in responce to Brownshoe]
Actually for Brownshoe to consider a theory to be valid it only has to be the opposite of whatever I have said (or what he reads which in general has little relation to what I actually wrote). The most amusing part is his repeated affirmations that he isn't going to reply any more to my posts which are quickly followed by more followup posts.
brownshoe :
Follow the logic :
1) deformation of metal weakens it, eventually leading to premature fracure
[this isn't because it becomes more crystalline, plastic deformation induces the formation of dislocations (which are actually imperfections or reduction in the perfection of the crystal structure) which create fault planes of greatly reduced tensile strength along the dislocation line (perpendicular to it the strength it actually increased this is the same effect which causes work hardening)]
It is also well known that :
2) steeling and related fine honing sharpen mainly by deformation
[this can easily be verified by methods describe in the above, plus should be be obvious anyway that such methods are not removing sigificant amounts of steel, I would doubt that even Brownshoe would argue you could reprofile an edge with a smooth steel]
yet the conclusion that :
3) steeling and related fine sharpening leave edges in weakend conditions which will eventually lead to premature fracture.
is dismissed as just a theory.
Can anyone else besides Tom and Brownshoe not see that 3) immediately follows from 1 & 2.
Problems with weakened factory edges, of similar conditions have been well known in general even with much simpler steels. See for example Jim Aston's work with a lot of puukkos and other such knives (including high end brands) who found that the factory edges are frequently commonly poor in regards to edge holding due to burred edges, burnt steel, or even geometrical factors such as hollows in the edge.
His conclusion after treating many such problems was the same as initially proposed by Thombrogan, give the initial edge a solid sharpening to remove any weakened metal and the edge should form crisp and stay sharp significantly longer. The same basic principle then extends to edges which have the same properties (weakened or worn metal) for other reasons, edges which get very hot in use, or suffer high impacts, or gets excessive corrosion, etc. .
This problem, and many others related to sharpening can be solved with a simple x10 magnifier, and no you don't need a highpowered scope. Deformation blunting and chipping and corrosion are sigificant effects as the 0.1 mm scale, if they only 0.01 mm in depth they would not be significant as that isn't even as large as the microteeth produced by many stones. It should follow easily that for the damage to be significant it can't be smaller in size than the already irregular nature of the surface.
-Cliff
cliff, i have agreed with you many times, but i see no need to post on these subjects since you have so many avid followers. A few months ago, in an effort in self improvement, i stated that i wouldn't post on your threads...this thread was started by someone else. I believe the only recent thread of yours i posted on was the one where you dissed a Fin and the pukko. I just couldn't let that one sit. cliff, you need to try some self improvement too...remember there is a good reason you're not a moderator here anymore.
My limited point from the beginning is that theories are not fact and all the supposition in the world added to anecdotal evidence won't prove a theory...only objective evidence, that is repeatable, obtained through the scientific method will prove a theory. That's what Mr. Mayo said. I joined this thread to give some support to Mayo since i believed you and mr. brogan were out of line.
My limited point from the beginning is that theories are not fact and all the supposition in the world added to anecdotal evidence won't prove a theory...only objective evidence, that is repeatable, obtained through the scientific method will prove a theory. That's what Mr. Mayo said. I joined this thread to give some support to Mayo since i believed you and mr. brogan were out of line.
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Brownshoe,
How have your experiences with reprofiling S30V, 154CM/ATS-34, or BG42 blades been? Which methods worked best or worst for you?
How have your experiences with reprofiling S30V, 154CM/ATS-34, or BG42 blades been? Which methods worked best or worst for you?
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Even, if it wasn´t a question to me, my exp. on reprofiling ATS34 (812sBM), D2(806BM), S30V(5000ABM) and D2(Schanz) was to start with a coarse stone and finish with the Spyderco rods. Just the rods is not enough. ATS34 was damn hard to reprofile, the D2´s were quite easy and took a very sharp edge, which the hold reasonable long. The ATS34 dulled in a minute from shaving sharp down to sharp. The BM D2 showed litle chips after cutting cardboard but remained sharp. The S30V and the other D2 blade showed no chips and remained very sharp.
The S30V was easy to get a microbevel on it, with the brown rod. But maybe my thoughts will change, when i have to grind the whole edge bevel, cause there would be more steel to remove.
Steeling is a thing i usually don´t do, exept i smacked a notch in the edge. I use a leather belt with little grease compound or the smooth benchstone from IKEA to strope.
The S30V was easy to get a microbevel on it, with the brown rod. But maybe my thoughts will change, when i have to grind the whole edge bevel, cause there would be more steel to remove.
Steeling is a thing i usually don´t do, exept i smacked a notch in the edge. I use a leather belt with little grease compound or the smooth benchstone from IKEA to strope.
Cliff Stamp
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brownshoe :
Be specific, what was being dismissed as "just a theory", was actually elementary logic applied to known properties of materials and sharpening techniques, ie. steeling deforms an edge and that deformation weakens metal leading to premature blunting. Now if Thombrogan had proposed an idea like S30V can not get as sharp as BG-42 based on sharpening one knife, then arguements could be made that more work should be done before such a definate statement could be made as there are lots of other reasons for such differences (order of sharpening, nature of the edge grinds, heat treatments etc.) .
Of course this reveals a huge bias because Thombrogan would never have been critized by Mayo for lack of scientific method if he was instead praising S30V. This fact can be readily noted because there are a multitide of such posts based on use of just one knife with often no baseline for performance given at all and how many times has Mayo (or anyone in fact) jumped into these threads and asked the posters to not make such "theories" until they have whipped out their microscopes and bought a dozen or so other random blades from various other makers.
-Cliff
Be specific, what was being dismissed as "just a theory", was actually elementary logic applied to known properties of materials and sharpening techniques, ie. steeling deforms an edge and that deformation weakens metal leading to premature blunting. Now if Thombrogan had proposed an idea like S30V can not get as sharp as BG-42 based on sharpening one knife, then arguements could be made that more work should be done before such a definate statement could be made as there are lots of other reasons for such differences (order of sharpening, nature of the edge grinds, heat treatments etc.) .
Of course this reveals a huge bias because Thombrogan would never have been critized by Mayo for lack of scientific method if he was instead praising S30V. This fact can be readily noted because there are a multitide of such posts based on use of just one knife with often no baseline for performance given at all and how many times has Mayo (or anyone in fact) jumped into these threads and asked the posters to not make such "theories" until they have whipped out their microscopes and bought a dozen or so other random blades from various other makers.
-Cliff
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Blop,
I had the opposite experience sharpening and reprofiling my 806D2. Now, though, after several sharpenings and dullings, it will make hair jump when it touches skin and can easily be touched up with a sanding block. My 154CM knives reprofiled easily, but I think that BM heat treats them differently they when they used ATS-34.
S30V, from Spyderco and Benchmade, touched up and microbeveled really easily, but the resharpening on a Sharpmaker took some time. You may experience that, too, if that day should come.
Torment,
I hope that all of the discussions, arguments, and whatever else is here helps you get the most out of your edges. The folks at Bladeforums, along with Ben Dale at EdgePro, have given me tons of knowledge and ideas when it comes to what a blade can do.
Cliff,
I disagree. There appears to be a direct corrollation between materials I like and there decline in use. I like M2, Benchmade drops it from their 145 Nimravus Cub and 905 Mini-Stryker models. I like AUS-8A, Cold Steel takes it out of many of their folders and fixed blades. I like made-to-order knives, several great makers start making one-off versions of their more popular models to be sold to whomever is next on the list. In deference to this trend, I will not mention makers, materials, or styles that I find to be enjoyable for fear that others may miss out.
I had the opposite experience sharpening and reprofiling my 806D2. Now, though, after several sharpenings and dullings, it will make hair jump when it touches skin and can easily be touched up with a sanding block. My 154CM knives reprofiled easily, but I think that BM heat treats them differently they when they used ATS-34.
S30V, from Spyderco and Benchmade, touched up and microbeveled really easily, but the resharpening on a Sharpmaker took some time. You may experience that, too, if that day should come.
Torment,
I hope that all of the discussions, arguments, and whatever else is here helps you get the most out of your edges. The folks at Bladeforums, along with Ben Dale at EdgePro, have given me tons of knowledge and ideas when it comes to what a blade can do.
Cliff,
I disagree. There appears to be a direct corrollation between materials I like and there decline in use. I like M2, Benchmade drops it from their 145 Nimravus Cub and 905 Mini-Stryker models. I like AUS-8A, Cold Steel takes it out of many of their folders and fixed blades. I like made-to-order knives, several great makers start making one-off versions of their more popular models to be sold to whomever is next on the list. In deference to this trend, I will not mention makers, materials, or styles that I find to be enjoyable for fear that others may miss out.
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Thom, did i say that? I wouldn´t use the brown rods for anyhing more than light resharpening. Of two reasons: 1. they don´t take away much metal. 2. they have to be cleaned earlier and wih more work han a dry benchstone.
I love the rods for things like finishing and polishing the edge.
Truly, i will see next days, because i´m gonna get away my microbevel on the S30V edge. Using a benchstone (Apex fine) ..on voir.
I love the rods for things like finishing and polishing the edge.
Truly, i will see next days, because i´m gonna get away my microbevel on the S30V edge. Using a benchstone (Apex fine) ..on voir.
Cliff Stamp
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thombrogan :
Then do me a favor and make a post about how you love 60 HRC stainless steels on large tactical and heavy duty chopping knives, deep hollow grinds on the same, talonite and all similar materials, liner locks, and thick edge bevels.
-Cliff
Then do me a favor and make a post about how you love 60 HRC stainless steels on large tactical and heavy duty chopping knives, deep hollow grinds on the same, talonite and all similar materials, liner locks, and thick edge bevels.
-Cliff