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Am I missing something? I think this information is only slightly more useful than nothing at all. It's like giving static MPG ratings for bare engines (without chassis, drivetrain, tires, etc.).
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Oct 2010 Knives Illustrated CATRA results for six Crucible steels
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nozh2002
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I sorry, but ability to hold edge is one of the important property of knife. And at some point all models which had CPM 440V or CPM S60V where replaced with exact same " chassis, drivetrain, tires, etc." , but blade with "better" steel.
Information that edge holding results on CPM S30V CATRA test 541 versus 1030 for CPM S60V I consider as impotrtant. Especially when it was only steel was replaced. If not in similar number but at least in the form - about twice less edge holding or considerably less or similar to 154CM - something like this.
On my opinion this is downgrade.
Thanks, Vassili.
Sal Glesser
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Hi Vassili,
Edge holding is difficult to get definitive "truth". Knocking out variables is very difficult. The CATRA is consistent in testing, but other variables need to be consistent as well, edge angle, edge thickness, grit of belt used to sharpen, skill of sharpener, heat treat, etc.
Also, results might be different from one "tester" to another for the above reasons. Before we purchased a CATRA, we built our own edge retention tester using a different medium. I am funny about getting my own information. That's why we analyze steels. Break parts, and rust parts.
sal
Edge holding is difficult to get definitive "truth". Knocking out variables is very difficult. The CATRA is consistent in testing, but other variables need to be consistent as well, edge angle, edge thickness, grit of belt used to sharpen, skill of sharpener, heat treat, etc.
Also, results might be different from one "tester" to another for the above reasons. Before we purchased a CATRA, we built our own edge retention tester using a different medium. I am funny about getting my own information. That's why we analyze steels. Break parts, and rust parts.
sal
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Thanks for posting this. Need to go pick up this issue (wondering who did the testing). That 10V result doesn't surprise me.
It would be interesting if those with access to a CATRA machine were free and carefree with their results, but if I was in their shoes, I would not release them either. I'm sure I could not be as nice as Sal is in explaining why, as well!
It would be interesting if those with access to a CATRA machine were free and carefree with their results, but if I was in their shoes, I would not release them either. I'm sure I could not be as nice as Sal is in explaining why, as well!
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here are the edge thickness at the top of the bevels
154CM-.008
S30V-.018
3V-.016
S60V-.013
S90V-.014
10V-.013
The 154CM is the most significantly different and also the lowest performer. I don't know if that correlates to any other testing results. S30V next deviates the most from the average (.01367) but on the high side, and performed closest to 154CM.
154CM-.008
S30V-.018
3V-.016
S60V-.013
S90V-.014
10V-.013
The 154CM is the most significantly different and also the lowest performer. I don't know if that correlates to any other testing results. S30V next deviates the most from the average (.01367) but on the high side, and performed closest to 154CM.
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Thanks, Jim! :grumpy: The more time Sal spends explaining his test results, the less time he has to make Para2 knives.
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I've got 2 Ferhmans and 1 ZT in 3V but I'm ready to take the next step step and get a folder in 3V. It has the wear resistance, edge retention and does pretty good at edge stability.
It should, it's a cousin to vascowear.
I suppose some will rust it out but to be honest we have people that rust out VG10 and try to claim it's a defect, or the "heat treat".
The CPM M4 has worked out pretty well. Maybe it's time.
It should, it's a cousin to vascowear.
I suppose some will rust it out but to be honest we have people that rust out VG10 and try to claim it's a defect, or the "heat treat".
The CPM M4 has worked out pretty well. Maybe it's time.
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But the results are only valid and comparable within the limited universe of specific facts applicable to the test.
It doesn't tell you much about whether you should buy knife X in S30V or knife Y in 154CM.
It doesn't tell you much about whether you should buy knife X in S30V or knife Y in 154CM.
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Knife X - Spyderco Military - 440V, S30V, CPM D2, CPM M4, BG-42, S90V
Knife Y - Benchmade 710 - 154CM, D2, M2, CPM M4, M390
Knife Z - any variety or customs. The most obvious since one knifemaker did all these blades for the test.
I'd say it is quite valid for when we have the options. The Paramilitary 2, Manix 2, Griptilian, Ares, several AG Russel knives, etc. also have come in a variety of steels. So yes, you can get a different engine on the same chassis/drivetrain/tires. And you can change other parts easily. New handle scales, different edge angle/polish, reground, rehardened.
In fact, this is the only way the tests are valid. You have to control for other variables if you actually want to see a difference in the steels themselves. It would be pointless to look at CATRA results for a Military in M4 to state how a 710 in M4 would compare. It would get you in the ballpark, but as Sal stated, you need consistency in other factors.
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Ankerson
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I am waiting on mine too so don't feel bad. :grumpy:
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Thanks for posting that. Although, 60-61HRC for CPM 10V is quite low. Phil Wilson hardens his 10V knives to 64-65HRC and they're not prone to chipping for the blades that thin and hard. Never had a single chip on my 10V.
CPM 3V, the beater/tester knife Phil made for me is 62HRC and it also takes quite a bit of an abuse, w/o chipping.
Never had S60V at high hardness, but even at 55-56 HRC it was difficult to sharpen, not sure why...
What you said all the time was that WW II era D2 steel was still the best in the world. Multiple times.
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I'm not the one casting his test results in a negative light and keeping him away from the production floor. This time, that is.
That's being replaced with praise for a Cartec powder steel. Soon, it'll be 2010-era Carpenter D2 is the best in the world.
Ankerson
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I'm not the one casting his test results in a negative light and keeping him away from the production floor. This time, that is.
.
He has a Production Manager for that I believe.
But yeah I understand what you are saying.
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I guess I wasn't clear You and I are in complete agreement.
The Mule program is another example, sort of.
Sal, if you're listening, it'd be cool and useful to have a few "normal" steel Mules (154CM, VG-10, etc.) to use as comparisons with the others! :thumbup:
You and I are in complete agreement.The Mule program is another example, sort of.
Sal, if you're listening, it'd be cool and useful to have a few "normal" steel Mules (154CM, VG-10, etc.) to use as comparisons with the others! :thumbup:
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I'm not sure CATRA gives anything too conclusive. For the most part, I feel it only measures raw wear resistance. The other two forms of edge degradation, edge rolling and chipping, aren't tested.
Still, I feel like we might be at the limits of current technologies for these steels. I've spied a few high speed tool steels that I would love to see in a knife blade, but they have both hardness and carbide volumes so high that it's utterly impossible to machine them without full diamond tools from start to finish.
Still, I feel like we might be at the limits of current technologies for these steels. I've spied a few high speed tool steels that I would love to see in a knife blade, but they have both hardness and carbide volumes so high that it's utterly impossible to machine them without full diamond tools from start to finish.
These numbers look very similar to a graph of testing results (I think it was Spyderco) from five or so years ago when they started using ZDP-189.
The number on 3V is interesting though, low carbon high wear resistance. That stuff certainly seems to be an extremely well rounded steel.
The number on 3V is interesting though, low carbon high wear resistance. That stuff certainly seems to be an extremely well rounded steel.
I've also got a Wilson at 64.5 HRC, and it's edge holding is nothing short of phenomenal. The only thing that I have that comes close is M2 at 65. I'll be willing to bet that if the 10V was harder, it would be a LOT further in the lead.
Interesting that 3V did that well. It's one of my favorite steels, and is easy to sharpen to boot! :thumbup:
nozh2002
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I am really disappointed. I suspected that CPM S30V is not better then CPM S60V, but did not expect such a difference in CATRA edge holding tests recently reported.
Vassili.