Off Topic 4th of July Rant

fitzo said:
I watched that entire horror come down "live" on the tube. I remember that once, just once, after the PA flight went down, that there was definitely a report that a large piece of the plane was down 7 miles from the bulk of the wreckage. It was never, ever repeated. I am absolutely certain I remember the report correctly.

Call me paranoid, but to this day I suspect the plane was shot down by the AF and the government intervened in the reporting.............
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The lives of the few may have saved the lives of the responsive.
 
A good friend sent me an e mail about a new book out, "Bad Trip". by Joel Miller. How simply the 'war on terrorism' could be won, without firing a shot, just going back to the freedom we had back in 1776. Not bad reading for those who seek answers.
 
I don't believe anything different could have happened with the fine people aboard the world trade center planes. These planes were full of mothers,daughters,sons and fathers. They had no idea of what was about to happen or I'm sure the outcome would have been different. The first instinct of a mother or father is to protect their children and these people probably figured they were just being highjacked and after several scary hours if no one did anything stupid they would be free again. You have to remember, no one in this country had ever seen anything like this before, so stop and think about this, here you are flying high in the sky with your wife, son or daughter.(Before 9/11) A person stands up and says I am taking control of this plane and if everyone does what their told no one will be hurt, if not I will blow up the plane and all will die. what would you do? Are you going to risk getting your loved ones killed. The airlines had dealt with highjackings before and most just ended up taking a long flight to another country, so why would these people think any different, I know I wouldn't have. No, I would have been lead to slaughter also, But today it would be different.

Its a different world today then it was before 9/11. I agree with the right to carry concealed weapons, but maybe it needs to be a manatory thing that all of us over a certain age have to be trained and made to carry such weapons,(say a small piece thats not bulky or cumbersome issued by the government) but then again there's another infringement of your rights, making you carry a weapon when you don't want to. There's a lot of nuts out there,terrorists and not. You give them all the right to carry, they will, but not all the good trusting people will, so really whats the answer?

Bill
 
Some years back, the town of Reserve, NM passed an ordinance that every household had to have a gun, it caused a negative reaction in the national media even though the Sherrif said he would not arrest anyone not in compliance. Reserve is the county seat of Catron County, one of the sparsest populated counties in the west, 7,000 sq. mi/ 3500 people.

This happened in reaction to the Brady Bill. We are probably never going to see universally permitted concealed carry.
 
A second book, "The Declaration" By Evan Napen, who is a champion of knife and gun rights is another book that absolutely discusses the most basic cause of all the garbage (legislation) we are now facing. Those who would like to gain a full understanding and simple solution to our threats to freedom will have some answers after reading "Bad Trip" and "The Declaration".

I was a cop for over 12 years, became very reluctant to reamin in that professions when I polled some of the other officers about what they would do if gun control became law. I was ashamed of the profession when I learned that they would participate in a house to house search for illegal firearms and confiscate them. "it would be our job".

I became aware that the 'they', in "They can have my gun when they pry it out of my cold dead hands" could easily inclede me.

Have a great 4th of July
 
Individual rights will most likely contiue to erode as long as we continue to allow the passage of legislation that "protects us from ourselves". We are no longer a society that believes in self-discipline and individual responsibility.

I have long believed that the second great schism in this nation will occur over this precise topic.
 
I was a cop for over 12 years, became very reluctant to remain in that professions when I polled some of the other officers about what they would do if gun control became law. I was ashamed of the provession when I learned that they would participate in a house to house search for illegal firearms and confiscate them. "it would be our job".

Ed, There was a little more to it for me. I realized that I had become the very thing I hated. It is surprisingly easy to be a JBT when you are frightened or hurt or angry. It's also surprisingly easy to get away with it!

Guys, I'd like to leave you with a thought before tomorrow. While our right to be armed is a very basic premise to freedom, it is not the beginning and end. Our first weapon should be the vote. I realize that it seems that it does no good to vote. That is true to a certain extent but if we all pull together and vote...it doesn't even have to be for a certain party or person...just vote, I think you will find that like minds do vote for the right person.

The first step though is to go to the polls.

It may be that we have to fight one day. That is something to be avoided if possible. Not afraid of but avoided. It's no fun.

The second step is to behave like Dan. He was a pain in the backsides to the reporters and politicians that were pushing the knife/sword stories. I was very proud to be a part of these forums.
Be a pain...they work for us. They just don't remember it until November gets here and they come begging for votes and promising the world. Hold them to it.

Have a good 4th everyone!
 
Good thoughts!! Things happen to those who sit and wait to see what transpires. How's it said, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

I remember when you had to "declare a party" in primaries in Illinois. They'd get pissed when I'd switch parties depending on what candidate I wanted to vote for. When I told them that sometimes I vote for what I considered a weak opponent to whom I wanted to really see elected, they got really aggravated with my use of "creative voting".

I guess the old radical in me will never die, but I learned long ago that wearing a headband and burning a joint in a circle with a bunch of like-minded but passive dissidents wasn't the way to get anything done. I never miss a vote.
 
The erosion of our freedoms may just be the condition that gives birth to candidates who are not afraid to voice their concerns, and stick to promices, the way it is all too often now, they talk in such manner that they have little comitment to the true issues. It is up to us as individuals to force issues into elections with absolute comitment from candidates and support them.

Fitzo, you are absolutely on the right track. Crimes with victims need enforced, it is the legislation against victimless crimes that puts lawenforcement in the shoes of tyrants.
 
See once we have retinal scans to do ANYTHING, and DNA searches everytime you want to buy something it will all be MUCH easier... :barf:
As soon as we live in a Gattika world we will all be MUCH safer! Its all for the children after all... :rolleyes: :barf:
 
I have read the posts on this topic...But I have yet to see a reason to be so upset about life here in America after the events of 9/11

I reject the idea that we have made laws that make us less free after 9/11.
Some keep saying that we have some freedoms that are seeing "erosion" ...well,,,fine, but I cant think of any such freedoms that I enjoy now, that have seen such "erosion"

I have been paying attention to the way I live my life now, as compared to the way I lived before 9/11 and I dont see any difference at all.

I cant think of even one way that my life could be said to have changed....nothing,,,not even in the smallest of ways...

I on the other hand, do remember that the evil men who made so many people die on 9/11, all did this with a few "box-cutter" knives, so I would expect that our goverment does try to make that a lot harder to do in the future.

I also remember that right after 9/11 another guy tried to set off a bomb that was hidden in his own shoes,,,so I also expect that the Goverment works to try and make that harder to do too.

If someone can point to some law that has made a change in the way a normal American ,such as myself, has changed for the worse, then I would be interested in reading about such.

But so far, I see a lot of angry talk coming for writers who were angry at the goverment before 9/11 anyway , and this all seems to just feed their own views in an unhealthy way.

( P.S. as far as I have learned from my reading, Although one engine landed about 2000 metres away, investigators have said the plane was moving so fast, and its wings were rocking so wildly, it simply fell off. Remember the plane was not coming in for a safe landing...As for the far-flung debris, almost all of it consisted of charred letters from a postal shipment. Flung high into the air by the impact's fireball, it drifted away on a nine-knot breeze. Despite Internet reports, very few human remains were recovered * none of them outside the immediate impact zone.)
 
You are more tolerant than I am.

If someone can point to some law that has made a change in the way a normal American ,such as myself, has changed for the worse, then I would be interested in reading about such.


BOSTON - In an online eavesdropping case with potentially profound implications, a federal appeals court ruled it was acceptable for a company that offered e-mail service to surreptitiously track its subscribers' messages. [/I]

This may not bother you but it makes me mad as hell. I just picked that from a quick search of Drudge. The Government does something daily that both irritates me and effects my way of life. Again, it might not bother you at all. That's one of the great things about this country. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.....for now!

But so far, I see a lot of angry talk coming for writers who were angry at the government before 9/11 anyway , and this all seems to just feed their own views in an unhealthy way.

Yes, I was angry before 9/11 and am getting more so by the day and no, there is nothing healthy about the situation in this country as I see it!
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
I have been paying attention to the way I live my life now, as compared to the way I lived before 9/11 and I dont see any difference at all.

I cant think of even one way that my life could be said to have changed....nothing,,,not even in the smallest of ways...
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I would suggest you (re)-read the Patriot Act. See how much you gave up for "protection" the government turns around and says it can't provide. It doesn't just apply to mafioso or foreign peoples in the US.

I'd also suggest you go to an airport and during your security screening say, "I'm good at hiding things."
See how a law abiding citizen can get treated for a joke.

Read how the FBI can break into your home, ransack it, and then find out they had the wrong address. See how much recourse you have to justice for their screwup.
 
Fitzo beat me to it. Definitely the Patriot Act. ANd the various stronger Patriot Act 2's tha tAshcroft ha spushed
 
The Patriot Act, scary stuff. It basically eliminates constitutional protections if someone ''thinks'' you might be a terrorist or assisting them. It should be repealed.
 
DaQo'tah and all,
I understand what you are getting at but I don't agree. Just the price of gas makes me angry when the people in power now say that the oil companys deserve the extra profits!
I am a gun nut with almost a hundred hand guns and a loaded shot gun within reach, but I'm also one of the "hated liberals". Having said that I believe in our constution and despise the people who would take that away (yes, Ashcroft is one of 'them'.
But we must also remember that the freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. As we live closer togather our freedoms will also srink.
Just my thoughts, I may be wrong,
Lynn
 
Lynn, you are no more right nor wrong than any of us, IMO. This is a complex issue as we try and walk the line between public safety and personal freedom. It is an oft-repeated argument through the history of our land. All that we can do is stay atop the issues and exercise due diligence so that we can find the best compromises that fulfill our common needs. Hopefully our special-interest-tendency politicians will feel the same way. However, that said, no one likes further restriction of freedom.

I simply tend to not like continually restrictive legislation. I am a bit anarchistic in the sense that I want as very few laws as possible. I am tired of the federal government growing. It needs to shrink. I am socially liberal, in that, if it doesn't hurt anyone else, have at it. I am financially conservative. Gov't, keep yer freakin hands off my money! That's me in a nutshell.
 
I remember an editorial in a popular national publication when Nixon declared "The War on Drugs". The author predicted drastic loss of basic freedoms we enjoyed at that time. I was a cop at the time and remember thinking 'that will never happen'. Most of his predictions and more are upon us now.

Dakota, you and I live in low pupulation areas, not too much pressure, local sheriff's are elected and tread lightly. That does not mean that I will keep my head in the sand and not voice my thoughts for the basic freedoms we are losing daily.

As government becomes more opressive, the pendlum should start a return to more realistic legislation, if enough of us care. Today is the day we celebrate our indipendence, our freedom, I seriously doubt most readers even realize how much we have lost. We will know freedom and justice when all are as outraged at injustice as are the victims themselves.
 
I thought this might be a good time to post a little refresher of what is supposed to be guaranteed as our birthright in the U.S.A. By my reckoning articles I, II, IV, V, VI, VIII, IX and X are all under some pressure and/or truncation by the fed and especially by the gun control laws, the war on drugs and last, but far from least, the Patriot Act.

Bill of Rights

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

I also recommend (re)reading the Declaration of Independence. I try to remember to read both each year on Independence Day.
 
also recommend (re)reading the Declaration of Independence. I try to remember to read both each year on Independence Day.

Well said Steve!
 
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