offtopic counterfeit discussion removed

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NorthernSouthpaw said:
Indeed!!

Plus there are at least 20+ different Chinese Kershaws that fit in the OP's price range.
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Indeed. Price is really no excuse.

If one thinks buying a Ganzo is morally fine, then whatever. That's an individual's choice. I'm not gonna judge.

But saying you cant afford anything else is disingenuous at best.
 
coun·ter·feit

/ˈkoun(t)ərˌfit/

adjective

1. made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.
"two men were remanded on bail on a charge of passing counterfeit $10 bills"

noun

1. a fraudulent imitation of something else; a forgery.
 
hellvenger said:
no i'm supporting my wallet which is not perhaps has big as yours :thumbup:
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Nice. The next excuse for a person trying to legitimize their support of counterfeiting: I can't afford the real thing! Look, if you can't afford a RAT 1 or 2, I suspect your choice in knife is about the last thing you should be worrying about. You have already made far poorer life choices. What the heck? Just one more. Give me that knock off!
 
POCEH KOCEB said:
The one I got was given to me by my son, he is not really a knife person, he only knew that I like axis locks on BM and this was his search criteria. I gave him Rat 1 couple years back so when he came across a "Rat1" with AXIS lock he thought I'll like it and ordered the knife. This will answer pretty much how damaging is stealing intellectual property, a "knife person" will know the difference and will act according to his standards, but a non-"knife person" will recognize a counterfeit as a legit product and will also go for the lowest price.
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Exactly. And when people read about these things on the internet they sometimes end up here. We can tell the truth about these products and help educate them. Also, we can help maintain the reputation of BFC by not condoning the support of counterfeiting.

But as we have seen in this thread, even some of our members are confused about how they are supporting counterfeits and hurting this hobby.
 
craytab said:
Exactly. And when people read about these things on the internet they sometimes end up here. We can tell the truth about these products and help educate them. Also, we can help maintain the reputation of BFC by not condoning the support of counterfeiting.

But as we have seen in this thread, even some of our members are confused about how they are supporting counterfeits and hurting this hobby.
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Agree. The gentleman earlier gave you the definition of counterfeit:
coun·ter·feit

/ˈkoun(t)ərˌfit/

adjective

1. made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive...
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The example with my son is exactly this, he was deceived to purchase something that looked very close to the original product.
 
POCEH KOCEB said:
Agree. The gentleman earlier gave you the definition of counterfeit:
The example with my son is exactly this, he was deceived to purchase something that looked very close to the original product.
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Yup. Especially with the lock. It is advertised as an axis lock which is a registered trademark and a patented mechanism. Unlicensed reproductions using the same name ARE counterfeits of the axis lock.
 
So the orange Ganzo pictured in post #17 pretty blatantly copies the Rat 1 handle and blade shape, while copying the Axis lock. Just wow, they have no shame.
 
MaximIsayev said:
I've put it side by side with the RAT 1 and the Avispa, looks like the size and proportions are a bit off, it's it's about halfway between the RAT 1 and 2. While the lock may be a copy of Benchmade's lock (patenting such mechanisms is a questionable practice by itself, but that's a matter for a while different thread), the knife itself is still no more of a counterfeit than the Cold Steel Finn Bear which is a low-cost copy of the Tapio Wirkkala puukko, or half the stuff Boker Magnum sells.

[edit: Or the Cold Steel SRK which is a clone of the Fallkniven A1]

[edit 2: More examples: Cold Steel Master Hunter is a clone of the Fallkniven F1, Cold Steel GI Tanto Survival/Tactical is a clone of the Strider BN fixed blade, Cold Steel Canadian Belt Knife is a clone of the D.H. Russell Canadian Belt Knife, and so on and so on. Black Talon gets a pass because Spyderco gave them permission to copy it.]
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Might want to check your timeline on the SRK and A1.
 
Of course the Chinese can make good knives.

The problem: Counterfeit knives. Supporting them because one 'thinks with his wallet' is short term only and to the detriment of the knife industry and ultimately knife buyers.

MaximIsayev said:
Seeing as there was no attempt to deceive or defraud the consumer there, it's clearly not a counterfeit but an inspired copy
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I nominate that as euphemism of the year.


MaximIsayev said:
[edit: Or the Cold Steel SRK which is a clone of the Fallkniven A1]
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Please tell us again, which came first; the Carbon V SRK which I bought years ago or the A1?

Gun - foot - bang?
 
The ganzo knife led a friend of mine to buying a benchmade north fork so they clearly aren't that bad for benchmade. He liked the lock but the steel had much to be desired so he went to the only other company with the axis lock, benchmade and would have otherwise possibly bought a cheap Kershaw and kept it. So who knows how many other times ganzo knives have lead people to buying a benchmade
 
Ulf Krogstad said:
Ganzo,enlan, sanrenmu, just rip off the designs from other companies/designers. Cloners. They and the people who buy their products need a kick in the teeth imo. I'd get a Cold Steel or Kershaw. I think you can get a Cold Steel Recon or Hold out for under $30 or close. The Rat 1 is descent knife too. But for the money, would get a cold steel.

BTW had a ganzo (one that was a clone of Benchmade Bedlam) and didn't take a descent edge let alone hold one. They are toys,clones, garbage.
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Complete rubbish. All of my SanRenMus and Enlans are original designs. Ganzo is the only one whose knives are clearly based on existing production knives from a certain butterfly company. Sanrenmu even has their own one-of-a-kind detent slipjoint mechanism used by no other maker to date.
 
We don't even know who the hell makes all these brands. Lack of transparency.
 
As a devils advocate, there is a certain limit to possible designs, and eventually things will get similar. To that example, the SRK and A1 are both very simple knives. yes they may look very similar, but the fallkniven looks like a fallkniven, Its a bit like a song, you put the same chords together, and you might end up at the same place. Are they a copy, maybe? but I think that's less important, and probably an outlier in the discussion. If you decided to not buy a knife from a company that in its history did something a little shady, I don't know that you could buy any knives, or any product for that matter. There have been many head to heads of many companies, and not all of the blows were queensbery rules if you catch my meaning.

That being said, from a quick google search of what ganzos look like I see a lot of "inspired" designs. While I think their use of the axis lock branding is wrong, an inspired design, as long as not following someone else's branding is a little more gray. There are a lot of companies doing direct knock-offs which I think are worse, however, to Sosa's point, who's to know if the blatant counterfeits and the "branded inspirations" are coming from the same sources. My suspicion is that all these designs are getting made by any number of factories and there are layers of contractors and middle men involved. A quick look at Sanrenmu showed some interesting things, like very similar to Boker city multitool, and some stuff that was very spydery. They might have some originals, If the slipjoint mentioned it the one I've seen, its not that original. its just a detent without an accompanying lock. Many other companies have gone from OEM to counterfeiter to legit. The fastest way for them to get to legit is for counterfeiting to not be profitable.

While I personally have nothing against products manufactured in China, I would rather know what I'm getting, deal with a company who I feel is trustworthy, and if that means spending a few extra bucks, well, then that's what I have to do. That goes for a lot of things, not just knives. But I'd rather buy one 60$ knife and know what I was getting than spend 20$ on each of three and maybe get something good. I've spent too much on crap at this point.
 
I think there are people who like to use this topic to proclaim themselves as morally superior and say "I'm better than you because I won't buy those knives".

And some people are very liberal in their use of the word "counterfeit", and label any knife that closely resembles another knife as a "counterfeit".

I personally see a big difference between a "counterfeit" and a "copy"-

To me, a "counterfeit" is a knife designed specifically to defraud people and try to trick them into believing that it is the real thing. Like a fake Sebenza that looks just like a real Sebenza, is advertised as a Sebenza, has all the markings of a real Sebenza, and comes with a leather pouch that has the Chris Reeves logo stamped on it.

But to me, a "copy" is one knife that looks very similar to another knife, but is obviously not that other knife, because it possesses clear differences in design, or is clearly marked with the name of it's true manufacturer.

Trying to pass off "counterfeits" as the real thing in this country is a crime (fraud) and should be prosecuted. But making and selling "copies" is not a crime.

And if anyone believes that producing, selling, buying, or promoting "copies" hurts the knife industry, the knife community, and this forum, then consider the following-

Here is a link to the list of online knife retailers who are paid sponsors of Bladeforums http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1089879-Paid-Dealer-Members-List-(Updated-12-20-15)

Several of those vendors sell "copies". Like for example, several knives sold under the Schrade name (Taylor brands).

Not only does the owner of this forum take money from vendors who sell "copies", but this forum promotes those vendors and recommends that the members here buy from those vendors. Like where it says at the beginning of that thread- "Remember guys, shop with these guys first, give the businesses that support your hobby your business".

So it seems to me that if anyone here is morally opposed to the production and sale of "copies", and believes that the production and sale of "copies" hurts the knife industry, and the knife community, that they should stand by their principles and renounce their Bladeforums membership. Because after all, Bladeforums is accepting money from vendors who sell "copies", and Bladeforums is promoting vendors who sell "copies".

Personally, I don't have any problem with "copies", the companies that produce them, or the vendors who sell them. Nor do I have any problem with this forum, or it's owner, for taking money from those vendors or promoting those vendors.
 
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Contrary to what some think Oreos are a copy of Hydrox cookies, not vise versa. Hydrox was actually discontinued for a time as Oreos thrived. Most folks think Hydrox is the knockoff.

If you've eaten Oreos you are hurting the cookie industry and supporting a criminal enterprise.
 
killgar said:
I think there are people who like to use this topic to proclaim themselves as morally superior and say "I'm better than you because I won't buy those knives".

And some people are very liberal in their use of the word "counterfeit", and label any knife that closely resembles another knife as a "counterfeit".

I personally see a big difference between a "counterfeit" and a "copy"-

To me, a "counterfeit" is a knife designed specifically to defraud people and try to trick them into believing that it is the real thing. Like a fake Sebenza that looks just like a real Sebenza, is advertised as a Sebenza, has all the markings of a real Sebenza, and comes with a leather pouch that has the Chris Reeves logo stamped on it.

But to me, a "copy" is one knife that looks very similar to another knife, but is obviously not that other knife, because it possesses clear differences in design, or is clearly marked with the name of it's true manufacturer.

Trying to pass off "counterfeits" as the real thing in this country is a crime (fraud) and should be prosecuted. But making and selling "copies" is not a crime.

And if anyone believes that producing, selling, buying, or promoting "copies" hurts the knife industry, the knife community, and this forum, then consider the following-

Here is a link to the list of online knife retailers who are paid sponsors of Bladeforums http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1089879-Paid-Dealer-Members-List-(Updated-12-20-15)

Several of those vendors sell "copies". Like for example, several knives sold under the Schrade name (Taylor brands).

Not only does the owner of this forum take money from vendors who sell "copies", but this forum promotes those vendors and recommends that the members here buy from those vendors. Like where it says at the beginning of that thread- "Remember guys, shop with these guys first, give the businesses that support your hobby your business".

So it seems to me that if anyone here is morally opposed to the production and sale of "copies", and believes that the production and sale of "copies" hurts the knife industry, and the knife community, that they should stand by their principles and renounce their Bladeforums membership. Because after all, Bladeforums is accepting money from vendors who sell "copies", and Bladeforums is promoting vendors who sell "copies".

Personally, I don't have any problem with "copies", the companies that produce them, or the vendors who sell them. Nor do I have any problem with this forum, or it's owner, for taking money from those vendors or promoting those vendors.
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tl:dr

Read the first sentence. And yes, people who object to supporting counterfeiting are better than people who knowingly support counterfeiting :thumbup:
 
Ganzo knives arent counterfeit they may wrongly be using a patent but unless ganzo tries to sell them off as a benchmade axis mini griptilian then it's not counterfeit. And since ganzo isn't claiming the lock style to be theirs, at least then if someone searches axis they may get into benchmade. No one here should be eating Oreos because they aren't original from what I've heard here.
 
Etna said:
enlan, sanrenmu, ganzo are Complete rubbish.
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Yes they are. 👆

Oh goodie. I guess I created a thread in my sleep. Why not just erase this from existence Mods? Never again being involved in any way with these garbage knivez. If you suckers wanna buy junk that great. Not worth the time to get into more. Was thinking about turning this into a W&C farting party butt I just want this down for good. Tata.
 
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