Ok, lets talk lock strength

H

Hal

Joined
Feb 26, 1999
Messages
830
Just how important is the issue of lock strength anyhow?
I honestly believe it's blown all out of proportion.
Millions and millions of people use and even abuse folders day in and day out without injury. In lots of cases, their isn't even a lock of any type. Day in and day out, I see posts that center on this knife is better cause it has a better lock,,,or this knife is junk because it has a liner lock,,,or you name it,,,it's all lock-lock-lock.
I just can't see where lock strength is even a minor factor in the vast majority of daily use. I mean really, if the knife closes, it's because the back of the blade has pressure on it. If you're cutting with the back of the blade,,,,turn,,the,,thing,,around and use it right.
 
I think lock strength is not very important but lock reliability is of the utmost importance.
 
I agree with JoHnYKwSt: not every knife should have a lock... but if it has one; it should be good.
 
This may seem a bit hard edged , but my spin is a lock of
any kind (well made that is) is there to hold the blade open
against the user using a folding knife in the wrong way.
It can serve no other purpose.
 
I agree completely with RobertHankins and JoHnYKwSt. I use a knife with all the due care possible, but sometimes mistakes happen. This is why I do not use a slip joint.

In the event something unforseen happens to impact the spine of the knife - the lock has to hold.

Put another way - I could live with the risk if the consequences were trivial, but the blades I own are SHARP.

I own fixed blades and use them when appropriate, but can't carry them everywhere.

Last comment - if locking mechanisms were not important to us, you would see only a few posts.
 
Reliability. Strength doesn't mean S if it doesn't always work.
All these guys who will sacrifice everyday functionality for giant tanklike folding knives with worries of their lock failing when they are stabbing people's sternums and stuff are a bit "off" IMHO.
If you want a knife to cut people up and stab 2x4's with, carry a fixed blade. Want a good POCKETKNIFE? carry a little one with a reliable lock.
 
Originally posted by Tightwad
This may seem a bit hard edged , but my spin is a lock of
any kind (well made that is) is there to hold the blade open
against the user using a folding knife in the wrong way.
It can serve no other purpose.
Click to expand...

Granted that most of the time if you use the knife correctly there is less chance of it closing on you, but we learn the right/wrong ways through experience and you wouldn't want your first mistake to cost you your fingers. And in an emergency situation where you won't have time to think about "proper knife technique" you want that lock to be strong AND reliable. You need to trust in your lock.
 
Peolple expectations of folders have gotten so high that it has resulted in some making folders that are huge, and many times so beefy that they just dont cut very well (like a knife should).

I used to be in the spine whacking camp until I realized how irrelevent it really is. Your knife may only wiegh 5 oz. or so, but think about how much pressure is really appleid during whacking. Your slamming a knife on the spine which generates pretty huge pressure very quickly and expecting a thin (relatively thin) little peice of metal with a small contact area to remain undamaged....its not a realistic expectation. Take a cars transmission for and analogy. Transmissions have steel parts and are pretty strong, after all they can move your car. Now, imagine driving 60mph down the road and all of a sudden throwing it in reverse....chances are its gonna be left as a pile of junk on the road.

The actual strenght of the lock is important to some degree. In case of accidental mis-use where the back takes the pressure, then of course it should be able to hold. Like a saftey on a gun, its there to prevent accidents, but its not full-proof....its expected that the user will have at least a small bit of common sense.

I think some people get a little upset when they have a "heavy-duty" folder and run into some job or something that needs a tool capable of extreme chopping, penetration or whatever. Some job they would normally use a Busse for, but since its not with them, they figure some 'tac-folder' they got is supposed to be tough. When it breaks they start wondering if the company will warranty it, and why the POS lock failed.

Its just simple common sense. Locks are small moving parts. Nobody would put a gun to their head and pull the trigger hoping that the safety works on it. And nobody should trust their fingers to knife locks while intentionally abusing and pushing a folder beyond all reasonable limits.

I think most catastrophic locks failures can be attributed to abuse if folks were honest. I have seen plenty of threads over the years where somebody claims to be cutting a small box open, or slicing an apple or some small easy job and the lock failed and they want to know what the company is gonna do. I would suspect that there is far more to those stories than what they say publically. I mean, its not like they are goona say "hey, I was stabbing trees and chopping concrete blocks, you gonna warranty it?" They know the company will tell them tough-$hit.

If you want the performance of a fixed-blade, then buy one.
 
Strength without reliability is useless. Consider the demise of REKAT, who spent years bragging about the strenth of the Rolling Lock only to suffer reliability problems they couldn't deal with.
 
I have enough experience of pushing a knife to do things it shouldn't and having them fold up on my fingers to have learned to use the right tool for the job. I only cut myself down to the bone twice using an knife the wrong way...I no longer use a slip-joint when I should use a fixed blade or lock back. I am sure many of us have learned such lessons the hard way.

Having said that there is ONE reason I need to know whether a lock is reliable or not-

If forced to use a folder for self defense or in an emergency and I have to make a hard stab into someone or something. If I happen to hit bone or a belt buckle or some other hard impenetrable what ever, I do not under any circumstance want that sucker folding over my knuckles!!! A combination of fear and an unusually tight grip can put extreme pressure on a knife at the moment of truth so I have read. I don't want to worry about lock failure at this point in time.
 
I'll agree with the idea of reliability first, strength second, but that is not to diminish the importance of strength.

A folding knife is one of the easiest and best defensive weapons to carry legally. It can legally go places you can't carry a gun, places you can't carry a fixed blade, and even a few places you can't carry pepper spray. Although I am much more likely to use my knife as a tool than a weapon, I choose it first for legality of carry, second for defensive capability.

For that reason, lock strength is definitely important to me.
 
Ever heard of a lock failing someone? It was most likely due to a reliability issue, such as a liner lock that slipped or a poorly constructed lockback. If a lock failed due to the lock having improper strength, then metal bent, things broke. If this happened then what in the world were you using the knife for? Lock strength does play a role but a pretty minor one when compared to reliability.
 
Robert asks "Ever cut the backs of your fingers?"

No. I can honestly say that in over 41 years of carrying and using folding knives I've never had one close on the back of my fingers. Not to say it won't happen, just that so far it hasn't.

JoHnYKwSt asks "Ever heard of a lock failing someone?" then says "It was most likely due to a reliability issue"
No, not really. I've never heard of a lock failing someone. I've heard claims that a lock failed. In every instance though it wasn't the fault of the lock, it was the fault of the user. Someone, for whatever reason, was using the knife for the wrong purpose.

Richard says "I think most catastrophic locks failures can be attributed to abuse if folks were honest"

And I agree 100%

He also says "Now, imagine driving 60mph down the road and all of a sudden throwing it in reverse....
and I'm such a terrible person I have to comment "Isn't that why God invented rental cars? :D
 
I had a 72 Olds 98 that I threw in reverse at 70mph. The car simply shut down. I eased it onto the shoulder with the - now unassisted steering and brakes. Put the transmission in Park, turned the key and continued on my merry way. Transmission continued to be as smooth as it ever was. I firmly believe that American automobiles built prior to 1977 were the finest in the world. Sadly, the rush to fuel economy and advanced electronics led to the demise of these bullet proof vehicles. Interestingly and regrettably the notion of fuel economy seems all but abandoned today. It is beyond me why anybody who can afford one insists on owning their own bus (read Expedition and like vehicles). Less ambitious refinements of existing technology would have made for better built, more reliable, less expensive, more fuel efficient vehicles and much lower cost and simpler repairs.

Ahh yes - folding knives. Don't use folders very often but had a Gerber LST once that failed on me as I was stabbing it into my bed post. I haven't since and wont rely on a folder preferring to collect and use fixed blades instead.
 
It is beyond me why anybody who can afford one insists on owning their own bus (read Expedition and like vehicles).
Click to expand...
This is a fad/status symbol that I cannot fathom either. Seeing a city-bred tweed-jacketed academic climb into an SUV is kinda like seeing a wall street broker in a 3 piece suit sporting a "Crocodile Dundee" hat and a huge bowie.

:rolleyes:
 
I agree with those that said its not so much brute strength, but reliability. I do not want a lock that folds up on you. I don't know where you get your information about the millions that use knives every day with no injury. I would dispute that. You have no idea. How many times a folder is used and how many minor or major injuries result. I know plenty of injuries related to lock failures or accidental disengagement's of locks have been posted on this forum. I would dare suggest many more happen out there. So I want a reliable lock first, strong second, but prefer both.

Why do we want such overbuilt super strong knife designs for such mundane tasks. Well for two reasons. Some people always wonder if their EDC might have to be used for self defense or some other strenuous emergency cutting task in their life, and the other is reason is the same reason we have 65 mph speed limits and love cars that can double that speed in 13 sec from zero mph. :D
 
I have gone through many folders, i have had some fail, mostly liner locks. But i one had a frame lock pop out on me when i stuck it in a tree, cut my finder pretty good too. Now the only folder i own is a PCKS 110, and its the only folder i need, it has never failed me, is still shaving sharp after 6 months of use since sharpened, and there is no way i can ever see that lockback failing on me, ever. Its the most solid built folder i have ever handled so i will stick with what works. Thats not to say other folder are crap, but would you use a cheap liner lock to go huntung with and use it for things you would have sworn you would need a fix blade for? I have chopped with my buck, dug holes in things(twisting is what will make %90 of the liner locks fail), done light prying and it never failed me and lockup is still as solid as the day i got it, basically it comes down to what you are doing. If you open letters/boxes you dont even need a lock, thats what slipjoints are for, but if you are using it for any task thats comes up, you need something you can trust your life to.
 
Richard :

Peolple expectations of folders have gotten so high that it has resulted in some making folders that are huge, and many times so beefy that they just dont cut very well (like a knife should).
Click to expand...

I don't this it is exactly true that it is all the case of the user, and certainly not just a folder case. "Tactical" blades in general are now very overbuilt and this is often the main selling or promotional point. I fail to see why you would blame the user for expecting a knife to function as it is promoted.


I used to be in the spine whacking camp until I realized how irrelevent it really is. Your knife may only wiegh 5 oz. or so, but think about how much pressure is really appleid during whacking.
Click to expand...

This is completely up to you. You can be as light as a few taps into your hand, or a full smack off a hard target. It is simply a reflection of what you want in a knife, which is dictated often by the promotion of said blade as this is why you bought it in the first place.

As noted in the above, raw strength is usually not the case. Locks usually don't actually break but instead release, so it is a security issue. The huge torgue numbers tossed around are for the most part simply hype, as you can get the lock to release under a far lower load, REKAT being a prime example.

The main reason that it is an issue now, is the popularity of the liner lock which is very low in security. The simply lock back has no problems with all kinds of things that make the liner lock release. Now you can argue that you (personally) don't need to use a knife in a manner that can cause lock release, however if someone wants to, they are perfectly able to, they just have to pick the right lock. It is a similar issue with guards on a knife.


-Cliff
 
I can appreciate your comments re: liner locks. During even 'casual use' like cutting a piece of wood I have had the wood 'grab' the blade and due to pressure in the liner lock area the blade has released (not enough to cause injury thankfully). Also when using a particularly strong grip the meat of my palm has exerted enough pressure to cause a lock back to release (again not to the point of injury). Neither of these types of failures involved whacking or putting pressure on the spine of the blade. It does tend to lessen ones confidence in a knife quite a bit though.

Question: What is your general opinion of the secondary lock device that is used on the Gerber Applegate-Fairbairn Covert?

I purchased that knife just because it had that secondary lock. It is simple and natural to deploy and just as easy to undeploy while offering what seems to me a very secure method of keeping a liner lock 'locked'. In fact I am so confident in my Covert, I usually will chose it above several other good tactical style folders I have if my primary reason to carry is SD. I know there are better knives and locking systems available, but It's what I own at the moment. I also think that the Boye-dent know available on Spyderco's is a pretty good idea to avoid inadvertent pressure upon a lock back lock.

Mongel
 
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