Ok, lets talk lock strength

I'll refrain from any consideration about having a knife close on me out of fear of carrying bad luck on me :D
Let's just say that my everyday carry knife is a linerlock, which I deem useful and worthy because it can be opened and closed with one hand.
For real tough job I have a lockback from Fox.
If I have any fear of having the knife closing on me, I use a fixed blade.
If I don't have a fixed blade I'll refrain from performing the task, or put super-utra-extra-care into what I'm doing.

Lock reliability and strenght IS overblown, as 99% of the tasks you'll perform don't need a lock at all.
If lock reliability is so important, why all our grandads weren't severely impaired into the finger department? :D
Anyway, since today we HAVE locks, if a knife has a lock it's better it is a good one and choosing a knife with a safer lock makes sense, after all, so a good lock IS an asset. But we have too much hype on locks and disregard other functional parameters that are as much important. After all, if all that mattered was the lock, why go around with a knife? A combination padlock would be far better!

What I mean is that too often you see people chosing a knife out of hype on its being "tactical" and having a certain lock while totally disregarding other practical issues...
People choosing a "tactical" tanto, with chisel edge (which won't cut a damn because the dumb moron which made the knife sharpened it the wrong side anyway), tanto point (which will be a hell to resharpen), serrated edge (which will make it a helkl with particularly nasty devils in it to resharpen), a complicated lock (which will probably just collect dirt until it will no longer do its job), extra thin carbon scales (that will leave blisters on your palm after five minutes of heavy work) just because it's "tactical" (go and read what "tactical" means!) and has "TRIPLE-SAFE-MASTODON-GRIP-LOCK, paying a huge sack of bucks, while laying beside the "tactical" there was a perfectly functional folder, with a lockback common as dirt, with a traditional, well sharpened traditionally curved blade and with a fat, comfortable handle that will sit in your hand for hours of hard work without you needing to bandage your hands like Boris Karloff in "The Mummy" afterwards...
 
Alarion :

If lock reliability is so important, why all our grandads weren't severely impaired into the finger department?
Click to expand...

The locks on older knives were never promoted as having high levels of strength, and were mainly just regarded as slip joints with a safety. However when you start promoting your knives with very high break points, and advocating them for heavy "tactical" use, people are going to treat them as more than slip joints.

Mongel, I have not used any of the secondary safety devices for locking folders, of which there are several.

-Cliff
 
Sure, but what I say is that too often people becomes overly enthusiastic for this or that lock and forgets many other important qualities in a knife.
Somebody said "If you are not comfortable with a slipjoint, better you don't use knives". It's a bit extreme, but I used slipjoints for years without a problem.
What I want to stress is that there are OTHER important features in a knife than the lock. Blade shape, grind, edge, handle shape and fitting to the hand that will hold it and so on...
 
imho if ya wanna stay in biz ya better make a reliable lock (ie frame lock/axis/etc) if i wasnt worried about it, i would buy a slipjoint. as far as our fathers go, mine carried a buck 110 for years, i bet he had one of the first ones, and he liked his knives to lock.

many people CANT legallyb carryfixedblades, so they go for folders. they certainly want a lock that works i bet. i can legally carry a fixed, but have never yet found one that was comfy to me. not yet anyway, have a nealy pesh-kebz on the way and maybe it will be, but so far a no go. oh they are ok for occasional use, but not EDC for me. and i want my locks to work 110%, everytime.

and as far as the user causing failure, get real. i know my REKAT sifu failed for NO REASON, i didnt modify/abuse in any way, i know that, i dont care if people question, i know it, i'll argue it till my dying day. sure bob fixed it, but it doesnt inspire confidence when it all of a sudden folds up on ya and cuts the pi$$ outta ya.

there is one big knife which was designed from the ground up to be a mega folder, the cammilus maxx, w/a frame lock, i dont think mine will be failing anytime soon, imho. LOTS stronger than a rolling lock imho. 3X the knife at about the same price imho, maybe why the maxx is selling like hotcakes, while rekat goes under.

if the spine whack isnt legit, why do all the guys in tac knives/other mags do it to test the knives lock?? every last one does it. it must mean something. i dont think ya have to whack the crap outta it, a soft swat against the palm of my hand suffices, and if it fails, it certainly doesnt inspire confidence, no to me. if i dont want a locking blade, i'll buy a cheaper slip joint. imho, the knife is useless if it fails a simple light whack test, and from now on, i intend to return any that fail a LIGHT test outta the box, i'm simply not gonna put up w/it anymore, actually only 2 have, but why ya would just blow it off is beyond me. yes the whack tesdt DOES mean something, to me anyway

there are plenty of good locks around (ie axis/frame/lockback, liner/etc - i have over a dozen BM knives (625/650/710/800/806/975/910/etc) and NONE have failed my whack test, NONE. and the custom guys (ie pat crawford/ernest emerson) make outstanding liner locks. these are mostly liners, and they still pass.

imho, if ya dont need a locking knife, get a SJ. if ya make knives, dont say your lock rules unless it does. and for some of us, we need a reliable lock, like em, i need a reliable lock period end, and expect it when i pay good $$ for a LOCKING FOLDER!

have ya ever heard of a back cut??

just my .02

greg
 
Agreed 100%.
If you put something on a knife, it has to work and it has to be done properly.
We aren't discussing ifa lock is needed or not, or if you can live with a crappy lock on your knife, though.
Once agreed that a knife with a lock has better to have a GOOD lock, we are wondering if all this lock stuff has not been overly inflated lately. It seems some knives are sold just out of the lock they boast.
There is perfectly ordinary people who will use his knife to eat lunch or peel an apple in office or open envelopes, and maybe will use it while camping, who buys this or that knife because it has a certain lock, or it's "tactical".
And so they buy a tanto-point knife, with a chisel, serrated edge and paper-thin carbon fiber handle, when they would be far better served by any knife with a decent, honest, solid lock with a good blade and a good, safe, beefy handle, just because the other knife sports a "MAMMOTH GRIP LOCK".
Some knives are highly specialistic, but curiously are the most sold ones. The knife for the average person is a tool which helps to solve a lot of situations, while reading many posts here it seems the only reasonable use for a knife is as a weapon for self defense, and even there it will be routinely be used to punch through sumo wrestler sternums (while any decent, competent knife fighter knows that bones must be avoided).
So you get people buyng knives disregarding completely the use they'll put the knife to, and therefore the functional aspects it must have, in favour of features that, however top-level, they won't ever use or that will even be a hindrance during the normal use of the knife...
I've been carrying a 3 ounces pocket one hand opener liner lock for years and I've never been caught in need of a bigger knife or a knife with a stouter lock than a properly made liner lock or lockback.
When I know I need a bigger knife, I carry it in advance, but none of them has a slim carbon fiber handle, or a serrated edge, or a chisel edge, or a lcok different from a simple liner lock or lockback, and I've never had any need for them, in everyday life, in office, while camping or while in the army(where I carried a simple slipjoint or lockback)

Without considering the fact that a policeman is more easy going on somebody found with what is obviously a "gentleman's" knife, than with somebody found with a evil-looking serrated, wicked pointed black knife with "Sabretooth Shark" written on it in bold red letters...
 
Alarion :

... if all this lock stuff has not been overly inflated lately.
Click to expand...

While as you note, most people don't need much of a lock to do the vast majority of cutting performed, it would be very valuable if there were locks that were just as strong and secure as fixed blades, which means the blade would break before the lock. This is of course easy on a light use knife, as 1/16" thick blades will break easily thus they will go long before any decent lock, assuming it is made correctly.

Around here, while fixed blades are legal, they are not well accepted and thus a folder replacement would be very nice. The argument of "just use a fixed blade", is flawed, because if you could carry a fixed blade, then you would be doing so as folders are in every way inferior except they can be carried when fixed blades are illegal or not practical.

-Cliff
 
Since I work in a hospital, I see alot of older folks and plenty of them have scars on their hands, and quite a few are missing fingertips too.
Mostly these are from the pre-OSHA and safety regulation days, working in factories and textile mills, but I'm sure some are from knife accidents.
So...
Although I own plenty of slip-joints, I prefer a locking blade (but it does'nt have to be a "super lock" and withstand 100,000 lbs of pressure).
I just see it as a "why not" feature, and with today's technology it should'nt be a big deal to add a lock.

Good luck,
Allen.
 
Originally posted by Alarion
Once agreed that a knife with a lock has better to have a GOOD lock, we are wondering if all this lock stuff has not been overly inflated lately. It seems some knives are sold just out of the lock they boast.
There is perfectly ordinary people who will use his knife to eat lunch or peel an apple in office or open envelopes, and maybe will use it while camping, who buys this or that knife because it has a certain lock, or it's "tactical".
Click to expand...

Do people really buy just because of the lock, and no other reason? I'm not so sure I believe it. I do agree that there is often a mismatch between requirements and the knives that end up under consideration (hell, it happens to me sometimes), but often you'll see that of the 5 knives under consideration, all 5 have the same general characteristics. Yes, the final consideration may be based on the lock, but really the initial list of knives under consideration were all in the same class anyway, so if there were mistakes made in choosing the knives, it happened way before the lock was chosen. In short, I'm not sure that I've seen a lot of "buy this knife just because of the lock". On the other hand ...


Some knives are highly specialistic, but curiously are the most sold ones. The knife for the average person is a tool which helps to solve a lot of situations, while reading many posts here it seems the only reasonable use for a knife is as a weapon for self defense, and even there it will be routinely be used to punch through sumo wrestler sternums (while any decent, competent knife fighter knows that bones must be avoided).
Click to expand...

Okay, aside from the fact that if you're in a defensive situation using a knife, whether or not you want to avoid bones, given the intensity and adrenaline, it's best to assume you might hit them ...

I think you underestimate the magnitude of stress that even "normal" use can put on a knife. Now let me first say that I believe that many knives get put to very light use, nearly all the time. I carry what I think of as a gents' knife for that (currently a Kershaw black Chive). But even rather benign things can put a lot of stress on a lock. Ever cut something (thick cardboard, say) and get it stuck, and have to torque it out? That's monstrous stress on the lock, and of the worst sort. One guy was doing some light gardening, got his knife stuck in a stem, torqued it lightly and the lock failed. I'd much rather be over-locked than under-locked, that's for sure. And if you're doing anything beyond simple gents' use (opening mail, cutting twine, etc.) that falls into more of a utility classification, it is easily conceiveable that you might stress the lock someday.

Keep in mind as well, there's probably a high percentage of people here who have "self-defense" in mind in at least a secondary capacity for their primary knife. I do not believe that that is an unreasonable position, and it does necessarily put some high standards on the lock, although I don't think a decision should be made on the lock format alone.

Anyway, very interesting thread, thanks for starting it.

JOe
 
Without considering the fact that a policeman is more easy going on somebody found with what is obviously a "gentleman's" knife, than with somebody found with a evil-looking serrated, wicked pointed black knife with "Sabretooth Shark" written on it in bold red letters...
Click to expand...

:D Sabretooth Shark! That's priceless LOL Picture it


Not all people share our interest in knives and some of them even get spooked to the point of pointing you out to local authorities.
Cutting a string that held a balloon to me son's wrist I used a spiderco rookie,blade is about 3" and the knife does NOT look intimidating in my opinion. I did Not get arrested but was accosted. It was embarrasing and was overblown in a very big way. I even took the liberty of not being obvious. my hand hid all but a small portion of the blade.I also pulled my son aside so that I wouldn't get bumped and to excesize a bit of discression. It's a good thing the cop detucted that the busybody (actually a guy)was a little hmmm...easily flustered. And he could see I was just a Dad trying to make my son a little more comfortable. The string was tied around the poor guys wrist by another kid that was handing out the balloons. The knot was a mess and my kid wanted the problem solved yesterday. So you see...An every day type situation led to me be embarrased by a person with a phone in his pocket instead of a knife. The story the cop got by phone wielding boy was different.Ultimately I was sent on my way and was told that I was lucky and could have had the knife confescated. "lawful or unlawful is decided by the courts" he said "not by me"

The other thing in my favor was there were enough people around to say the other guy was full of $hit.

I wonder if the Cop would be less understanding if I was 18+- y/o Cutting the washing instruction tag off my girlfriend's shirt with an all black 4" hunter/killer class tactical tanto.

As far as locks and there strength and reliability goes.
When manufacturers tell me something like "this knife is tested to at least 200lbs of force to overcome the lock" I might be fooled into thinking that it may be as good as a fixed blade for strength with the convenience of a folder. I still don't believe that but for an EDC it's nice to know the knives offered today are leaps and bounds ahead of what was comonly available 30 years ago. Nothing against a Buck 110. I have one too, but I wouldn't think of using it as an EDC. Even now if the blade is over 3 1/2" I'll go with a fixed blade.
 
Well, IMHO lock strength is the first priority when choosing a folder, if you plan on using the folder for normal use. ;)

Normal use being cutting things in which once in a while the knife might get stuck in the materials and twist, and perhaps even becoming unlocked if the lock is inferior. Non normal use may be of two types, light duty and or display, and severe abuse. Light duty being an occasional string, envelope letter openings etc. Non torque applications. Abuse is just that abuse - knife not designed for the work requested. This brings up the tactical question. If a knife is designed as tactical it should not close when performing it's job. Striking bone, clothing, etc. twisting etc.......or the occasional annual cutting.

Wade
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
Alarion :
While as you note, most people don't need much of a lock to do the vast majority of cutting performed, it would be very valuable if there were locks that were just as strong and secure as fixed blades, which means the blade would break before the lock. This is of course easy on a light use knife, as 1/16" thick blades will break easily thus they will go long before any decent lock, assuming it is made correctly.

Around here, while fixed blades are legal, they are not well accepted and thus a folder replacement would be very nice. The argument of "just use a fixed blade", is flawed, because if you could carry a fixed blade, then you would be doing so as folders are in every way inferior except they can be carried when fixed blades are illegal or not practical.

-Cliff
Click to expand...

I indeed agree with you on this... It would be a GREAT thing to have...
Notice that I've never said that if you want a strong lock, carry a fixed blade. Folders are just too comfortable and practical to carry if compared to a fixed blade. Moreover they are less "scary" ("Sabrettoth Sharks" excluded :D).
I just said "strong lock ok, but watch also at blade and handle design" :)

Please note also that I'm _not_ saying "lock is unimportant" or "you don't need lock", or "any lock will do".
I'm saying: A superlock alone is useless if you get a knife that doesn't perform the tasks it was bought for due to task-knife mismatch.
A good knife is the best compromise between lock, handle and blade design for the task it will perform.
It's true that people buying a knife just for the lock is rare (but I've seen at least a couple), it's true that a lot of people buy a knife just because it has this or that set of fashionable features without any consideration for the knife actual use.
The most probable use I'll have for a knife (over 15 years of knife carrying) is: eating, light cutting of paper, envelopes, tape and such, precision cutting of small items, cutting or shaping wood or leather.
The typical 250$ tactical folder, with thin carbon scales, tanto point, chisel grind, serrated edge would be dwarfed by the average 2.50$ Opinel in any of these tasks.

Therefore I want an everyday knife, light and easy to carry and use, and a stout knife for camping with a beefy handle. The two knives I own which have seen more use are a big skinner from Fox, and, first and foremost, my small victorinox, with the small, 1,5" blade being the most frequently used blade of all those I own...
My new folder now is the most used one, but I wouldn't dream of using it for camping. Too light.
The latest Vicotrinox I purchased, for my wife, is one of those with the lock, not a slipjoint. Having to substitute my old one I lost God knows where, I'll buy one with a lock, obviously :D
 
Originally posted by Hal
Just how important is the issue of lock strength anyhow?
I honestly believe it's blown all out of proportion... I just can't see where lock strength is even a minor factor in the vast majority of daily use.
Click to expand...

It's not a matter of science = it's a matter of trust.

I will never trust a slipjoint as much as I trust my frame lock, or lock backs.

Try cutting through a cardboard box covered in heavy-duty tape with a lock-less knife. If you use a jig motion, you most certainly will lose leverage and position, making it hard and dangerous to cut the box.

For me, this is a daily task. I need a knife that can cut as strong as a fixed blade, but fold neatly into my pocket.

I, for one, prefer lockbacks over liner locks. CRK's frame lock is pretty neat for a LL, though.
 
Originally posted by turkeyman
Hey Rifter, what is the pcks 110? Sounds like a folder I need to check out....thanks!
Click to expand...

Pete's Custom Knife Shop

He customizes Buck knives. A PCKS 110 is a customized Buck 110.

Go here:

Pete's Custom Knife Shop
 
How many of us would use a folder that had a reliable and strong lock, with no doubts of its reliability, but it took two hands to open and close it. I think what we want in a folder is the ease of opening and closing with one hand and that leaves the reliability issues.
 
i have one thing to say : lockback, at the rear of the handle, a big mother of a lockback. raaa. cant beat it. strong and realiable. I never use a knife without a lock, even if its just a crappy liner lock....i value my fingers too much, if you keep your knives sharp then the thing folding on your hands could end in quite serious injury.
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
...it would be very valuable if there were locks that were just as strong and secure as fixed blades...
Click to expand...

Anybody ever consider getting a balisong? I think they might be the closest you can get to a fixed blade.
 
Field dressing a deer as a boy in the darkness taught me the value of a good lock back vs. a slipjoint trapper. I was working in the dark and way deep up inside a deer's body cavity alot by feel and not by sight and then the damn knife closed on me and almost took off my finger. Stuff happens, with not always foolishness on the part of the user to blame.
 
Cliff,
It is simply a reflection of what you want in a knife, which is dictated often by the promotion of said blade as this is why you bought it in the first place
Click to expand...

This is an assertion you have made elsewhere as well (That tanto SOG bg42 knife), and is one that I disagree with. How a knife is promoted by the maker is of no concern to me, or many other users that I know. The group that I usually associate with (Hoodoo's forum @ KFC) is for sure not a tactically oriented crowd. Yet, there are several of us that own, and carry, the Benchmade Nimravus. This is a knife that has been promoted as a tactical combat knife, which is something I have no desire for. Looking at the blade shape, stock thickness, grind type, and other elements of design, several of us, independently bought them becasue we thought that the NIM had attributes that would make an excellent utility knife, and it is.
Busse knives are highly promoted for being "nuclear tough", but that is not why I buy them. It is because I know how a full flat grind on a wide, thick blade will generally perform. Once there are positive statements made about the materials by people who's opinions are valuable, including yours (in this case INFI, which is awesome), and I know that I can apply a nice, thin edge I have an idea of how I will use the knife and what the knife will with stand. Busse bending knives with a pipe, or cutting a zillion pieces of rope doesn't really influence me, anymore than Lynn Thompson's tests did (or did not as the case may be.) One of the reasons that I bought Busse knives, and will continue to, is not because of what Jerry Busse says they will do, but simply that Busse stands behind his product, for what I decide to do with it.

As to overbuilt folders, I agree that knives have gotten too thick, and have too obtuse of edges applied from the factory. There are still some excellent ones out there. The Full size spyderco calypso springs to mine, with its thin stock and full flat grind it is a superb slicer. The Sebenza, with its deep, high hollow grind is a great push cutter and all around utility folder. Is it promoted as being "tactical" I don't know, but I didn't buy it based on the makers claims, I bought it based on the design, in light of my experience as a knife user, and by comments made by others whose opinions I value.
Simply put, an experienced knife user doesn't look at ads to determine what a knife should be used for, or how the maker says the knife should be used. He makes that decision for himself, based on his accumulated knowledge of how different designs, using different materials, will work. It is not the maker that determines how a knife will, or should be used, it is the buyer.

As to the topic, lock strength, I think it is largely an over rated, and demanded quality. I do the vast majority of my daily work with a slip joint SAK. Sometimes I use a locking SAK, but not because I desire the locking blade, but rather for the extra length of the blade.

Just my .02,
Chad
 
I think that a lot of lock closures are caused by chance alone. I know that when I first examined the Spyderco Native, everything about the knife was perfect for me except that in two different grips my middle finger depressed the lock bar enough to disengage it without me exerting much strength. Maybe it was the design of the knife, or my particular hand size/shape, or maybe just my grip. But I don't want the knife blade to be flopping all over the place, regardless of what I'm cutting. The lock on the model was not "weak" or "unreliable" to everyone but it was for me. When Spyderco introduced the Native with the recessed locking bar, my problem was solved so I bought a Native.

Now when I sample a knife that I will potentially purchase, I grip it in as many ways as I can imagine, and squeeze it hard. If the blade is going to slip, or the lock fail, better to know it when I'm just holding the knife in the air, than to be pushing it toward something, or someone in a cutting motion.

I like to have knives that lock because I have used slip joints for many purposes, even just opening packages and had the blades close up, fortunately I haven't been injured.

The good thing about knives today is that there are enough options to make everybody happy. Maybe a lot of the knives that I like the best, you might despise, but who cares. My grandpa (in law) is a farmer. The guy uses his knife 1,000 times more than I do and for a lot of real hard work. He uses a large Old Timer slip joint with two or three blades. The thing couldn't have cost more than $30 or $40 bucks and it's lasted him forever. I don't know how many times he's cut himself, but I would guess that he's learned how to use it safely. I do know that I have a lot of knives that cost four times what he paid for that and I haven't got a fraction of the use out them as he has his slipjoint. I have also accidently cut myself a couple times practicing deploying a new/unfamiliar blade.

So whatever knives you choose to use, may they serve you well, and be safe!
 
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