Okay, now I'm convinced...

Magnaminous_G

Magnaminous_G

Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
2,090
... that I never, ever want to own a Hinderer or whatever other "high-end" folder. I've stated my opinion on this topic here before. To be honest, the more I've actually learned about knives and developed my own appreciation for what makes a knife great, the more my opinion on high end folders has softened considerably as I've used and gained experience with different brands and styles of knives. Believe it or not, I've actually even started to play with the idea of possibly seeing if I could appreciate a high end folder myself. Two things prevent me from pulling the trigger: A) The reality that I know for a fact I'll never carry or use it, although it might be a nice addition to a collection that I can appreciate by myself in my home. And B)...

My experience of today. For poops and giggles, I decided to go on Hinderer's site today to check out these XM-18s that people esteem so highly. Hmm... very nice! Beautiful even! Okay, so let me see what the fuss is all about. I know they're great and unique, so let's check out what the prices are. No store. Okay, looks like he works with distributors. No problem, let me check their sites out. And then it dawned on me as I saw that there was zero availability and a long list of quasi one-off Hinderers that were marked in bold red "SOLD"... dawned on me that this is a familiar game: essentially a racket for fan boys (yup, I used that word) who wait in front of their computers all day long, desperate to pay whatever the heck the price is just to get one, hoping rapturously that maybe they'll have the extraordinary privilege of paying out the ass for a grail knife today. If no luck today, well no worries... They'll wait all day tomorrow, frantically refreshing their browsers, hoping one shows up.

It reminds me of Atwood's tools, for those of you who are also EDC nuts. Sorry, I'm not playing that game. Not no, but hell no. That's why I don't own any Atwood tools. I've got a few by Schrade and Boker that are fantastic and widely available. Are they as nice as Atwood tools? No, of course not. But because of Atwood's legion of fan boys, nothing is ever available, and the demand of these voracious fan boys warps the market for his tools, driving the prices into the stratosphere, making it almost impossible to get one, creating a virtual racket in the secondary market, and sending Mr. Atwood laughing all the way to the bank. I now realize that this Hinderer fellow benefits/suffers from the same phenomenon. His knives may be perfect, and I'm sure they are, but there's no way in hell I'm going to play that game.
 
I get what you're saying, and even agree to an extent. For me it's more about what I'll use, or won't use. I've owned a few "higher end" knives, but never could bring myself to use them. I was always too afraid I'd scratch, lose, or break them.

I'm happier with my $50 Buck vantage, or even my $100 Spydie than I'd be with a $1000 grail knife..., I think.

I'm really craving a ZT 0560 though.
 
I have never owned a hind folding knife, and while sure I would like one I dont have plans to buy one. That being said, I dont think it is really right to categorize this has the "loyal fan" syndrome. When a item is not that great in quality and is kinda lousy that is the "fan" syndrome, not really when a item is really well made. Also a common criticism of apple is all the buyers are just loyal fans and will buy it no matter what. In some cases this is more true then in the OPs example (my opinion), but apple claims to be the best, and maybe they are, they do make some great products. Granted the people who buy apple products also think their the best, but apple thinks it as well.

Now I dont know much about hind other then his knives are expensive and sought after. Although the difference here is, hind is making a knife, not claiming they are the best, its buyers solely claim its the best, and that means a lot more then a company claiming it.

Either way, its all good.
 
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I tend to use only a few of my knives for tasks. Any other knives I buy, I buy to look at and fondle.
 
Never say never. :)

I'm not a Hinderer fan, or Sebenza fan, not yet much of a ZT fan. I carry Benchmades, Spyderco, Kershaw and even sometimes CRKT.

I also have been into watch collecting. There are some watch collectors that collect inexpensive watches. At one time I had a pretty good sized watch collection and all of them were $100 or less. As I've gotten older I have become more settled in my tastes and did not have the need for so many different watches, so I trimmed my collection down a bit and bought more expensive watches that fit my tastes better. I can see that this might happen to some extent with my knife collecting, and I've become interested in some knives more expensive than I normally would carry such as a Bradley Alias, ZT 560, and even some of the Benchmades that are more expensive than what I've been carrying. I don't foresee me going all the way to CRK/Hinderer territory though.

But back to the main subject, everybody has to decide what price range they are comfortable with. If you are happy with lower priced knives and respect them then that is great. If you want a more expensive knife and don't respect your other knives because they are cheap knives, then you'll just have to pay the money. But if you buy the more expensive knife you will have to use it, if you are afraid to carry it and use it then that isn't good either.
 
Your fantasy of how people buy Hinderers made me LOL, and honestly it showed that you don't know much about them or the people that buy them, or even how they buy them.
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
Your fantasy of how people buy Hinderers made me LOL, and honestly it showed that you don't know much about them or the people that buy them, or even how they buy them.
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I have no problem admitting I'm wrong if proven wrong, if you're willing to explain it to me. My post is just the impression I got.
 
If I were given a high end knife for free, you bet your collection I'd use it. That said, if I had to pay for it, I'd far more likely try to keep it, hope the manufacturer goes out of business, then sell the knife. I can appreciate wanting a super nice knife just to have it, but I'm really happy with the mid-tier stuff I already own.

Now watch me come back after spending $220 on an Osborne... which to me is expensive for a folding knife when you could just get something half the price and just as effective while enjoyable to own.
 
Magnaminous_G said:
I have no problem admitting I'm wrong if proven wrong, if you're willing to explain it to me. My post is just the impression I got.
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Rick Hinderer sells basically directly to any emt/fire/police/military that want one of his knives at list price. I belive list price on an xm18 is around $385. The knives are made in small batches so even those allowed to buy them directly often have to wait a few months. This is why they are not available via distributors. The Hinderer knives command such high prices on the secondary market because apparently that's what people who want his knives and are not allowed to purchase directly will pay. There's no more to it than that. Supply and demand at work, the market drives the price. In all honesty, a Hinderer knife at list price is actually a heck of a deal.
 
mkjellgren said:
Rick Hinderer sells basically directly to any emt/fire/police/military that want one of his knives at list price. I belive list price on an xm18 is around $385. The knives are made in small batches so even those allowed to buy them directly often have to wait a few months. This is why they are not available via distributors. The Hinderer knives command such high prices on the secondary market because apparently that's what people who want his knives and are not allowed to purchase directly will pay. There's no more to it than that. Supply and demand at work, the market drives the price. In all honesty, a Hinderer knife at list price is actually a heck of a deal.
Click to expand...

Its not just the market driving the price, many of the distributors listed on the Hinderer site list regular XM-18s well beyond $800, it would be fair to say the price gouging starts at an approved level.
 
Hey Magnameless,
I've got an Atwood MicroTool I'll sell you but you need to pay premium and wait a few days until the anticipation has swelled some
 
Magnaminous_G said:
nothing is ever available, and the demand of these voracious fan boys warps the market for his tools, driving the prices into the stratosphere, making it almost impossible to get one, creating a virtual racket in the secondary market, and sending Mr. Atwood laughing all the way to the bank. I now realize that this Hinderer fellow benefits/suffers from the same phenomenon. His knives may be perfect, and I'm sure they are, but there's no way in hell I'm going to play that game.
Click to expand...

It'a fairly obvious that you have learned very little and have no understanding of the custom knife market or of market forces in general.

Indeed you are angry because the knives are well made and popular. Well........news tip........everything in life that is worth having requires some effort and sacrifice. Sometimes that effort is in time and patience, sometimes in cash. Sometimes both.

You want a Hinderer direct from Rick? He attends several shows a year where he does a draw for the knives he has. Go to one and put your card in. No guarantee you will get one but that is life.........Supply and demand.

Want one fast? Make a post in the WTB section and you will receive replies. However expect to pay over the odds for it because the seller who sacrificed time or cash to acquire their's wants to see a return.

To come here and whine because you can't find one at a price you are willing to pay is pathetic.........
 
Magnaminous_G said:
... that I never, ever want to own a Hinderer or whatever other "high-end" folder. I've stated my opinion on this topic here before. To be honest, the more I've actually learned about knives and developed my own appreciation for what makes a knife great, the more my opinion on high end folders has softened considerably as I've used and gained experience with different brands and styles of knives. Believe it or not, I've actually even started to play with the idea of possibly seeing if I could appreciate a high end folder myself. Two things prevent me from pulling the trigger: A) The reality that I know for a fact I'll never carry or use it, although it might be a nice addition to a collection that I can appreciate by myself in my home. And B)...

My experience of today. For poops and giggles, I decided to go on Hinderer's site today to check out these XM-18s that people esteem so highly. Hmm... very nice! Beautiful even! Okay, so let me see what the fuss is all about. I know they're great and unique, so let's check out what the prices are. No store. Okay, looks like he works with distributors. No problem, let me check their sites out. And then it dawned on me as I saw that there was zero availability and a long list of quasi one-off Hinderers that were marked in bold red "SOLD"... dawned on me that this is a familiar game: essentially a racket for fan boys (yup, I used that word) who wait in front of their computers all day long, desperate to pay whatever the heck the price is just to get one, hoping rapturously that maybe they'll have the extraordinary privilege of paying out the ass for a grail knife today. If no luck today, well no worries... They'll wait all day tomorrow, frantically refreshing their browsers, hoping one shows up.

It reminds me of Atwood's tools, for those of you who are also EDC nuts. Sorry, I'm not playing that game. Not no, but hell no. That's why I don't own any Atwood tools. I've got a few by Schrade and Boker that are fantastic and widely available. Are they as nice as Atwood tools? No, of course not. But because of Atwood's legion of fan boys, nothing is ever available, and the demand of these voracious fan boys warps the market for his tools, driving the prices into the stratosphere, making it almost impossible to get one, creating a virtual racket in the secondary market, and sending Mr. Atwood laughing all the way to the bank. I now realize that this Hinderer fellow benefits/suffers from the same phenomenon. His knives may be perfect, and I'm sure they are, but there's no way in hell I'm going to play that game.
Click to expand...

Hit the nail on the head. I get excited about knife shapes and steels, just like anyone else. However, I'm not into materialism all that much, and so it is very easy to remind myself that a knife is a tool. But to each their own. I just find it kinda amusing that in the production knife sales area they're always saying "well I bought this last week but I need the cash so I have to sell it" or "I've had this sitting around, thought I wanted it but hardly used it and I need the money". Paraphrased of course. It's impulse buying based on hive mind mentality. Do as everyone else does and then convince yourself it was an original thought. Of course someone is going to argue with your opinion, and with mine.

However. There are collectors that intend to keep these knives and did not buy them on impulse, and can readily afford to keep them. I can't say what the market is there, but I can certainly appreciate the aesthetics of customs, even if they aren't the same kind of customs these folks like. I'm a user, a civilian camping EDC kinda user. Some people are collectors. Some can't decide what they are, so they buy an expensive knife and then use it. That's their thing. Not mine, not yours, but I kinda get it. The only part I don't get, however, is shelling out that much money for something that everyone else is buying. How custom is it then, really? How unique and rare? Not very. "Oh you got a Hinderer? Me too. How about CRK, got one of those? Me too. Strider? Me too. Snody? Me too." Sorry, but that aspect highly detracts from my personal interest and opinion. But like I seem to be saying a lot lately, to each their own.
 
Always remember, the majority of the population thinks it's crazy to spend $50 on a pocket knife and crazier still to own more than one. You hit a point of diminishing returns fairly quickly on almost any product, it's just a matter of how much time/effort/money you're willing to put in to get what you want. Personally, I don't (right now) want a CRK or a Hinderer, but more power to the people that do.
 
Rick designed a fantastic folder, just like Chris Reeve and Pohan Leu did.
And, Rick, Chris and Po are stand-up guys, men of integrity. For these reasons, I'd buy a knife form them
 
The reason I have not seriously looked into buying a second-hand one (not a qualifying direct from Rick buyer here) is the design of all but one knife seem to not be very conducive to EDC. The only knife I would consider is the 3" slicer grind. I do not understand wanting a knife with such a thick blade you cannot slice through anything. I doubt anyone buying these knives is using them as a sharpened mini crowbar anyway. I have never used one, but I have compared how well a thin blade slices to how well a thick blade slices, and just do not see myself wanting to carry it, and right now I am buying knives that I intend to use. That may change over time and then maybe I will pick one up to fondle and appreciate, but for now unless I see a reasonably priced not massively sized slicer grind, I will appreciate his craft from a distance.
 
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