OKC's SP series 1095 switch to 1075 steel...

...water bath...? Nope try molten salt bath. The link provided isn't specific to knife making but gives a general idea in laymans terms of the process of marquenching.

https://www.sst.net/marquenching-process/

Your link seemed to confirm what I said. “A salt water bath after heat treat” ie slowly cooling via salt water. I forgot to add the word “cooling” as I assumed it would be obvious. Thanks for the link though, good stuff. I wonder how they cool 5160.
 
Your link seemed to confirm what I said. “A salt water bath after heat treat” ie slowly cooling via salt water. I forgot to add the word “cooling” as I assumed it would be obvious. Thanks for the link though, good stuff. I wonder how they cool 5160.

Please quote from my link where you see a salt water bath?

All I see is that it mentions "molten" salt bath which is not the same as a water salt bath. Do you understand the difference between the two?
 
Last edited:
Yonose Yonose Below are photos of a show a molten salt bath in action.

"Would like to share my process of heat treating CPM-3V,
This was done at the knife shop of my friend. I lets the worker perform because molten nitrate salt is quit dangerous to who's inexperienced.
Let the picture speak for itself :D
Here is my process.
Stainless foil wrapped
Stress relief at 1125F soak 2hour, furnace cool overnight
Austenitizing 1960F
Quench in 500F molten nitrate salt, equalize for 2 minute
Air cool
Remove foil and straight to L2N, soak overnight
2 x Temper at 400F each"


















Compliments of shqxk. The initial thread can be found at this link at BF.
 
Mar quenching as I understand it is basically a salt water bath (after heat treat). If I’m not mistaken some of the nitrate in the salt enhances the toughness, if done in small batches. If they make knives for military, and have a huge new facility—my question is “why don’t they”— my hypothetical answer is that they make so many knives (at prices and quantities?) that it doesn’t make fiscal sense. Kabars cost $30 approximately per knife. Well treated 1095 will almosth never break and hold an edge longer. But tooj and you are correct about 1075. It just needs more frequent sharpening. 5160 won’t break at all ime. I do own a sp10 in both steels, and the 1095 cuts wood like butter while the 1075 lags far behind in performance. Some of the money saved goes toward a better edge, I think.
Hi Yonose, I have both 1075 and 1095 sp10s , just have expriences using 1095 ones , can you feel the diffriences between 1095 and 1075 ones on cutting and chopping retention?
 
Yonose Yonose In the link below is another interesting discussion here on BF concerning marquenching.

Salt bath ?

Notice in post # 2 of the thread by JCaswellwhere he mentions the potential dangers of water and oil when dealing with molten salt baths.

...I've used these things for probably 10 years and have never been burned (which is more than I can say for forging).
Obviously you want to keep water or oil out of your salt bath when it's at temperature because these things cause sputtering and popping as they vaporize (in high-temp salt) and that can get messy and potentially dangerous. I always wear a full face shield and welding gloves when using the hot salts--usually a welding jacket too...
 
Hi Yonose, I have both 1075 and 1095 sp10s , just have expriences using 1095 ones , can you feel the diffriences between 1095 and 1075 ones on cutting and chopping retention?

I can feel that the 1095 version works better at chopping, both in terms of performance and edge retention. It’s subtle, but with the weight of the blade being what it is it makes a difference to me. Batoning or prying, can’t really tell the difference. They both will chip and/or roll at the edge if abused.
 
Last edited:
Yonose Yonose In the link below is another interesting discussion here on BF concerning marquenching.

Salt bath ?

Notice in post # 2 of the thread by JCaswellwhere he mentions the potential dangers of water and oil when dealing with molten salt baths.

...I've used these things for probably 10 years and have never been burned (which is more than I can say for forging).
Obviously you want to keep water or oil out of your salt bath when it's at temperature because these things cause sputtering and popping as they vaporize (in high-temp salt) and that can get messy and potentially dangerous. I always wear a full face shield and welding gloves when using the hot salts--usually a welding jacket too...


You obviously know more (an incredible understatement)about the subject than myself. I didn’t mean that it was a bath comparable to a “warm water bath.” Different salts have different temperatures at which they change states, I guess I assumed there was something else in solution which brought that number down enough where it would cool, rather than reheat (or actually melt) the steel. That and the preface “mar”— meaning “sea” is apparently misleading to the uninformed. At those temperatures, is it possible that some elements from the salt combine with those of the steel? Specifically, sodium or potassium or calcium nitrate molecules unbonding and replacing some of the carbides with nitrides? I’m sure my utter lack of knowledge of the fundamentals of chemistry is frustrating, so apologies for that (both retroactively and in advance.)
 
Last edited:
Please quote from my link where you see a salt water bath?

All I see is that it mentions "molten" salt bath which is not the same as a water salt bath. Do you understand the difference between the two?

Gotcha. I see what you mean.
 
I can feel that the 1095 version works better at chopping, both in terms of performance and edge retention. It’s subtle, but with the weight of the blade being what it is it makes a difference to me. Batoning or prying, can’t really tell the difference. They both will chip and/or roll at the edge if abused.
thank you for sharing your exprience , cool.
 
in a website I read that the most recent models of sp-10 have a greater thickness around 6.80 mm instead of 6.35 mm

it would be to check with users who have purchased newer models (from April, December 2016 / 2017/2018/2019), mine is from March 2016 the thickness is 6.35 mm

:D (hypothesize) :D that Ontario when replacing steels in the SP-10 marine raiders from 1095c to 1075c it also increases the thickness thus compensating for the performance gap between the two steels taking it from 6.35 mm to 6.80 mm :D (repeated this is just my hypothesis) :D
 
Last edited:
By all accounts 1075 is tougher than 1095 so making it thicker should be the opposite of necessary. More likely 1075 comes in slightly thicker stock from the manufacturer so they just went with it, or it has a heavier coating?
 
1075 c has less carbon percentage (it is more suitable to be used in the woods (survival) 1075c is a softer steel than 1095 c for this reason (I hypothesized) that ontario had increased its thickness, so as not to make the bowie bend in the points most subject to stress (the tip and the tang)

I believe that the 1075 c used on the new sp-10 was a correct choice a coating of the blade would often do nothing but stop the bowie during the cutting phase :rolleyes:
 
1075 c has less carbon percentage (it is more suitable to be used in the woods (survival) 1075c is a softer steel than 1095 c for this reason (I hypothesized) that ontario had increased its thickness, so as not to make the bowie bend in the points most subject to stress (the tip and the tang)

I believe that the 1075 c used on the new sp-10 was a correct choice a coating of the blade would often do nothing but stop the bowie during the cutting phase :rolleyes:
I'll have to double check, but I believe my 1075 sp5 is thinner and lighter than my 1095 versions.
 
My sp1 says sepy 2018 on the box so it must be 1075 but i also have the sp1-95 (older version ) love them both
 
Why is the military using 1095 and the general public using 1075, I mean shouldn't the military be getting the 1075 if it's that much better than 1095 as you claim?? I have an SP-5 and I have been using it to chop maple sticks and twigs and already there are several chips on the blade. I always test my blades after use and I don't see this with my 1095 blades but an SP-5 Survival Bowie can't handle a few twigs and some particle board?? I had to go on ebay and I bought an older SP-10 which is 1095 and not that soft 1075. Ontario has been deceiving it's loyal customers by secretly changing the steel from 1095 to 1075 and not even telling the dealers that sell their knives, their knives are still being advertised as 1095 in many, many websites and this is simply not good. I used to be a loyal Ontario customer until I read this. I want to know what my blades are made of and prefer 1095. Ontario is even jacking the prices for inferior steel when in fact should be cheaper not more expensive and the sheaths are uglier then they've ever been! The only combat knives which are still 1095 are the 498, the OKC 3S, and the Freedom Fighter 6. Even the poor fools that make Youtube knife videos still think their Ontario's are 1095!! That's how many people know about this sneaky change, NONE!!!! I guess I'll go back to Kabar, at least they kept things the same. Ontario, you're a big disappointment to me.
I blasted Ontario's switch over before, but some of that was my personal dissapointment that they were moving to the same steel as condor. For a cheapo dude like me that loves big fat chopping machetes, I prefer a wider variety of steels from two of my favorite makers.
To the guy thats complaining about the sp-5 switch over, if he convex's the edge of that beast, it will bite better and hold it's shape against any kind of rock-solid hardwood. Also, Ontarios are cheaper than kbars for the most part. For USA made large blades, Ontario comes in at a very low price point. Probably the lowest in their class. It makes sense for them to tightly control costs on their value based products. While it is a pain in the ass to resharpen the blades more often, it is true that my Condor 1075 machetes have only taken chips when contacting rock/grit on a root, or a chop that followed through to the ground. My 1095 Junglas has taken chips from wood, one of which is almost too deep to sharpen out. Ontario's 5160 will not chip or roll no matter how much abuse I heap on it, but like the 1075, it does need to be resharpened a little more often. Also, 1075 sharpens up much faster and easier than other HC steels. It's very noticable. I think a lot of people use and think about smaller knives than the big heavy machetes I use, and in that instance, the value of edge retention > toughness. I prefer toughness and value to edge retention and a higher price point.
 
So by their admission Ontario Knives has been defrauding their customers for years, substituting 1075 for 1095 without letting anyone know. I am glad to hear that 1075 is such a fantastic improvement. So fantastic that the blister packaging on the SP-10 that I just purchased today lists the blade steel simply as “High carbon steel”.

Let me suggest that the issue isn’t the merit or lack-there-of in switching to 1075. It is the damaged credibility that comes from the way it has been done. As far as I am concerned they can go ahead and mark all of their junk “surgical stainless” the stuff is heavily coated that no one would know. They are a domestic company that has learned how to compete with their low end foreign competitors by sinking to their level of disrepute. Right now if they claim they have found a way to make knives from superior steels only fools would believe them.

I am lumping them in with the many other late great American brands, they may be made here but they are just as bad as the guys making stuff over there....

N 2s
 
I just looked at the link you posted, and it lists the material in the description as 1075, and in the additional info section as 1095. So, a little room still for confusion.
 
I think this thread, and other posts by @Toooj directly refute your point. Not only did they list 1075 on this page specifically http://ontarioknife.com/sp-10-raider-bowie.html but they made posts about which ones were changing on these forums.

Which evidence do you have that they substituted 1075 for 1095 without letting anyone know for years?

Maybe somebody should tell BladeHq. It looks like the entire Spec plus line (except the SP-10) is still shown as 1095 steel. And they are not the only ones.

n2s
 
Back
Top