OKC's SP series 1095 switch to 1075 steel...

Sellers on line and off line rarely up date any material changes. Two places I ordered the Woodsman had 5160 in the description, but I got 420HC SS ones. I called them and they changed to the proper model number that showed 420 HC SS blades very shortly. But it was a calculated risk for me I knew when I did it. It was the seller's fault for not keeping things up dated. I kept both of them though as large SS sure helped with that big meat critter we cut up. My little sister would always steal mine for her kitchen work...now she steal's little brother's when she comes to visit.

I kept them intending to do a hard test on one, gave the other to my brother who uses his for the HIS kitchen knife and camping/food prep knife besides other tasks. I saw the video @Revolverrodger did and it showed me that OKC knew what they were doing for its expected task. I did finally get around to old homestead testing the 420HC SS blade, long of the short it didn't break, chip or bend when I failed to baton various spring wet soft and hard woods with it. I failed at the task but the knife didn't its form or edge and stuff. So to me that proves that OKC knows what they are doing with the steels they use. My tests where steel against wood, not steel against some one's adimantiun claws.

As I said earlier I forgot which blades I got are 1095 and 1075 now mostly. I continually swap put my RAKs, one 1095 and one 1075, with each other and still can't tell the difference. They turned out to be my go to heavy use middling blades as they got micarta handles, good choil and are saber ground and do things that makes some people wince when I use them. I think I gave my brother my 1095 SP-10 that is his all purpose woods blade he uses even more than the SP-53, I snuck the 1075 blade in his sheath and he used it...looked at it, "Oh a bit different a bit." and kept using it. (He notices SMALL things like that). Of course he wanted HIS SP-10 back after the trip as he got attached to it.

As on the first page, the reasons were given for the switch over, and like the 420HC SS Woodsman I got, OKC does their steel right. Like heat treat, specific steel types and such (guessing here) and other things. OKC works with that they can do with their resources and makes very great affordable products. They studied the 1095 and 1075 steels and determined 1075 works best for customers and price wise and is a bit better for every one around. I trust the experted ones at OKC for doing things right. And my experience if some thing FUBARs they do make it right.

I just hope some more saber grind knives come out of OKC a bit more often. (Sort of drops a HINT there. :D )
 
if the sp-a kukri really is 1075 now... it will be time to check it out, the smaller size is interesting
 
Well, I for one, trust Toooj implicitly, when it comes to telling us like it is, and choosing the best steel for their use. I know him personally and know this was not done to just cut costs. It's really pretty simple, you know what they are made from, so you either choose to buy them or not to buy them. No way would he stand by and let junk be produced under his watch.

Furthermore, ANY steel can turn into junk, if it is not heat treated properly. Ontario has that down to a science. I once out chopped a $600 custom knife with my $21 Ontario machete. Being in business in the USA today, is no easy task anymore. I say KUDO's to Ontario and it's employees for staying in business for so long, and in NYS no less. Like he said, basically a win/win. Less, dissatisfied customers returning chipped or broken blades & makes better use of their money. It's all a balancing act. Just be happy we aren't all saying, "It's too bad that they aren't in business anymore !"

I haven't been on here in a while, cause life happens. I do hope, for the nay-sayers and collectors, that Ontario does make some choppers available in 5160. I am a huge fan of those choppers. Seriously, I sharpened them once when new and have not had to sharpen them since. Ontario Knife Company is a great American Company. I am sure if Toooj has anything to say about it, it will continue to provide hard use knives at affordable prices. That's all I have to say about that !
 
I hope you realize that 5160 = 0.6% carbon... so it's similar to 1060, but with a tiny tiny bit of chrome added (not for rust resistance)
Also, 1095 = 0.95% carbon...

so why is 1075 (with 0.75% carbon) so scary? I know it's not as popular as 5160, which recently has a resurgence of popularity, but so what?

IMHO 1075 is a nearly perfect low cost carbon chopper steel, tough tough stuff. My preference would be 80crv2 of course.
I do realize that 1075 is a very reasonable choice in a large chopping knife. Unfortunately, they seem to have used it in their smaller knives as well, and in particular their Old Hickory line of knives.
I'm not fond of 1075 in the smaller Condor knives, and I don't really want it in my Old Hickory knives either. I suspect this change was meant to simplify the logistical burden for the manufacturer, not for the benefit of the customers. I reached out to Ontario in order to learn more about this. Unfortunately, they never answered me.
 
Well, I for one, trust Toooj implicitly, when it comes to telling us like it is, and choosing the best steel for their use. I know him personally and know this was not done to just cut costs. It's really pretty simple, you know what they are made from, so you either choose to buy them or not to buy them. No way would he stand by and let junk be produced under his watch.

Furthermore, ANY steel can turn into junk, if it is not heat treated properly. Ontario has that down to a science. I once out chopped a $600 custom knife with my $21 Ontario machete. Being in business in the USA today, is no easy task anymore. I say KUDO's to Ontario and it's employees for staying in business for so long, and in NYS no less. Like he said, basically a win/win. Less, dissatisfied customers returning chipped or broken blades & makes better use of their money. It's all a balancing act. Just be happy we aren't all saying, "It's too bad that they aren't in business anymore !"

I haven't been on here in a while, cause life happens. I do hope, for the nay-sayers and collectors, that Ontario does make some choppers available in 5160. I am a huge fan of those choppers. Seriously, I sharpened them once when new and have not had to sharpen them since. Ontario Knife Company is a great American Company. I am sure if Toooj has anything to say about it, it will continue to provide hard use knives at affordable prices. That's all I have to say about that !
I purchased an RTAK II that had a serpentine edge on it. It weaves like it's drunk. No change in steel type is going to resolve issues like that. I am sure Mr. Tsujimoto is an honest person. But somebody at Ontario let that knife out the door, and it isn't the first knife by them that I've bought with that issue. They have a long, illustrious history, and I have some excellent knives made by them. But I'm tired of playing roulette and "guess my steel."
 
I totally understand. That's part of what makes it great to live in the USA. Choices. I have also found the limitations of an Old Hickory cleaver and a Condor blade, both of which rolled/bent the cutting edge, when I admittedly chopped something harder than the blade. I was able to pound the edge back & make them serviceable again but since that time, they have been assigned kitchen/food prep duties. I now know that those 2 are not up to "hard use" standards. Yet, I have other Condor blades that are fine choppers & supposedly made from the same 1075 steel. Go figure. I also can't help but wonder if the Covid19 "pandemic" & the standstill of the supply chain had any influence on that decision ? Maybe it won't be permanent ?
 
How would we know that they are still making knives out of 1095 or 1075. The commitment to the buyer, on their packaging, is that they are using “high carbon steel”. Which as far as anyone knows might be just about anything they can get there hands on. What’s the spec sheet on “high carbon steel”?

n2s
 
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I totally understand. That's part of what makes it great to live in the USA. Choices. I have also found the limitations of an Old Hickory cleaver and a Condor blade, both of which rolled/bent the cutting edge, when I admittedly chopped something harder than the blade. I was able to pound the edge back & make them serviceable again but since that time, they have been assigned kitchen/food prep duties. I now know that those 2 are not up to "hard use" standards. Yet, I have other Condor blades that are fine choppers & supposedly made from the same 1075 steel. Go figure. I also can't help but wonder if the Covid19 "pandemic" & the standstill of the supply chain had any influence on that decision ? Maybe it won't be permanent ?
Unfortunately, I'm pretty certain this will be a permanent change. I emailed Ontario again, and this time they answered me and stated that yes, their Old Hickory line of knives is 1075 now. This kind of makes the explanation of using 1075 a bit suspect, as I can't see many people returning their Old Hickory knives because they broke them while batoning them. When they were making them out of 1095, they were running the heat treat a little on the soft side anyway. Their new TAK-2 is listed as 48-52 HRC. I would expect numbers like that for an axe, definitely not a belt knife. They've cut costs and quality. The recent spate of Gen II handle issues has nothing to do with the steel they use. I was a fan of their products, and I have several excellent knives by them. I understand the mil-spec knives are still 1095. So I guess I'll pick up a 498 and a machete before they go under, lol.
 
How would we know that they are still making knives out of 1095 or 1075. The commitment to the buyer, on their packaging, is that they are using “high carbon steel”. Which as far as anyone knows might be just about anything they can get there hands on. What’s the spec sheet on “high carbon steel”?

n2s
Exactly. "High carbon steel", and "stainless steel." Ontario has made it plain they can change steel at any time. They mean it too. This is nothing new. When the Apache Tac 1 was released, there was confusion about whether they used 154CM or 440C.(It was 440C) The recent change of the Bushcraft line from 5160 to 420HC has created similar angst for retailers and consumers. Explaining a change on BladeForums to the avowed knife nuts, is not the same thing as sending a product update to wholesalers and retailers. In fact, it's only recently that they've updated their own website, despite that it has been several years since the change.
 
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He is right about one thing, the website and many dealers still show the steel as 1095. Debate the merits of one vs. the other all you wish, but this should be corrected asap. It’s well past due actually.
Yes, and here it is, 2021. They've just recently updated their website and vendors. It only took five years or so ,lol
 
How would we know that they are still making knives out of 1095 or 1075. The commitment to the buyer, on their packaging, is that they are using “high carbon steel”. Which as far as anyone knows might be just about anything they can get there hands on. What’s the spec sheet on “high carbon steel”?

n2s

Same issue happens in woodworking. It's "Chrome vanadium".

or "chrome manganese".

OK....0.5, .6% carbon? Or could it be silver steel rod (1.15% chrome vanadium rod where there's really not that much chrome or vanadium).

Drastic difference as the former can't make anything other than a construction site tool, but the latter can make a good straight razor.

That said, the newer knives I've had in 1095 (other than GEC) were all soft and Probably wouldn't be any worse in 1075. They very well could've been 1075 for all I know.
 
Same issue happens in woodworking. It's "Chrome vanadium".

or "chrome manganese".

OK....0.5, .6% carbon? Or could it be silver steel rod (1.15% chrome vanadium rod where there's really not that much chrome or vanadium).

Drastic difference as the former can't make anything other than a construction site tool, but the latter can make a good straight razor.

That said, the newer knives I've had in 1095 (other than GEC) were all soft and Probably wouldn't be any worse in 1075. They very well could've been 1075 for all I know.
That's the point they could have been 1075, and you wouldn't know.

You have a right to know what you're buying.

This is why I'm buying ESEE and KA-BAR knives lately. I know what I'm getting, and the performance is as expected.
 
Unfortunately, I'm pretty certain this will be a permanent change. I emailed Ontario again, and this time they answered me and stated that yes, their Old Hickory line of knives is 1075 now. This kind of makes the explanation of using 1075 a bit suspect, as I can't see many people returning their Old Hickory knives because they broke them while batoning them. When they were making them out of 1095, they were running the heat treat a little on the soft side anyway. Their new TAK-2 is listed as 48-52 HRC. I would expect numbers like that for an axe, definitely not a belt knife. They've cut costs and quality. The recent spate of Gen II handle issues has nothing to do with the steel they use. I was a fan of their products, and I have several excellent knives by them. I understand the mil-spec knives are still 1095. So I guess I'll pick up a 498 and a machete before they go under, lol.
Their we site says 57-58 check it here https://ontarioknife.com/products/tak-2
 
It seems that OKC has fallen off quite a bit. There is so much competition out there, domestic and foreign, and they seem to be failing in their attempts to stay relevant in today's knife market.
Are they in trouble?... Dunno.
 
I have also gotten great knives with really bad grinds from Ontario Knife Company. I sharpened them. No worries. Not every company is run like a swiss watch. Obviously, some are. People can choose where to spend their money. I ain't gonna lie, it is frustrating to get a product that is not up to par. If they are consistently putting out inferior products, the market will soon reflect that & they will realize it. If they don't fix it, then they will sink. It will be a particularly sad day for me if that happens. I have like 10 spec plus knives and absolutely love them. Especially the 5160 ones.
 
So many knife people are perfectionists. Maybe part of it is people that just want to look at their safe queens. That's fine, to each their own. I'm more interested in using my knives. What i look for is good design, tough steel, and I usually need it bomb proof with the way I beat on them. Fit and finish is not a big concern for me personally when I'm driving the damn thing though a big round log or carving up sod or whatever. I tend to reprofile for a convex edge once it dulls out a bit anyway, and for me touching up the handle is not a bad time. The best handle I have on a blade is a Condor I totally reprofiled myself. I just picked up a third hand but unused Ontario RD-9 a couple days ago and I love it. Another OKC 5160 beast! I can't wait to ruin it for everybody else with wood streaks all over the coating and a few tiny edge rolls!
 
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