Old steel vs new steel why the attitude.

What I found: in the last months I falled in love with old classic foldings, all are carbon steel. I sharpened them to shaving but I found that after cutting and peeling some fruits (4 or 5) I have to strop them to return at shaving capability. Yesterday I used my SAK solo (20$ knife) and I peeled 1 kg of potatoes and some apples without problems, still crazy sharp!!!
The conclusion: apart the nice patina (I love it!!), every stainless is better.
 
stef142 said:
What I found: in the last months I falled in love with old classic foldings, all are carbon steel. I sharpened them to shaving but I found that after cutting and peeling some fruits (4 or 5) I have to strop them to return at shaving capability. Yesterday I used my SAK solo (20$ knife) and I peeled 1 kg of potatoes and some apples without problems, still crazy sharp!!!
The conclusion: apart the nice patina (I love it!!), every stainless is better.
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I have found this phenomenon to be true with carbon steel kitchen knives. The acids in some foods, like fruit, can actually eat away at and dull a razor edge very fast. It's no the wear doing it, just the high acid content. All my kitchen knives are stainless Forschner/Victorinox for that reason. But my edc pocket knife is carbon. It stands up to all stuff when I wipe it off immediately after use.
 
I don't mind the super steels..... I do prefer the old school stuff though. It just reminds me of my old man or my grandpa. It's strictly nostalgic.... just like wood and jigged bone and slipjoints. I'd rather drive a 55 Chevy than the 2002 S-10 I drove today too.
 
Years ago I was staunchly in the 1095 corner. Unfortunately I despise patina. Spent way to much time keeping them polished. A SAK taught me how to enjoy stainless. I was deadset for a while to get a Beer Scout but it's 1095 so I'll stick with my Vic Explorer. 1095 was probably the super steel of it's time when it came out and I do respect it as a knife steel. My favorite is Buck's 420 hc stainless steel. It holds and edge well and sharpens nice. The fact I can sharpen it with any smooth rock on the ground truly endears it to me. Of course I can sharpen my SAK the same way. I can sharpen 1095 like that too, but 1095 rusts.
 
Good points bt93 and interesting what stef142 and Carl say about carbon knives and using them on acidic foods. I've really found that the edge does get compromised by acid fruit&veg. Another reason I like stainless for my eating knives, especially raw stuff.
 
stef142 said:
What I found: in the last months I falled in love with old classic foldings, all are carbon steel....
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It is a sign of getting older (egads!) that I remember not too long ago when almost all US made traditionals you would see were stainless. Case carbon steel offerings were scarce as hens teeth but they were CV not 1095. Online everything seemed to be SS. I also remember that about this time the boys who started up GEC were at Queen and they came out with these beautiful 1095 offerings. The Mountain Man Trapper, the canoe series, the mini-trapper. Maybe a couple others that escape me at this time. Anyway they were handsome, very well done, sold in plain wax paper, and a precursor of what was to be Great Eastern.

I bring that up to say that I can still remember the buzz that arose when these beautiful old time traditionals came out with Grandad's steel: 1095.

At the time, maybe 10 years ago, 1095 wasn't seen too often. And if it does have some shortcomings compared to stainless (and it does) it also offsets these to some degree with some very good performance and maintenance characteristics. It's a tradeoff for sure. But 1095 isn't seen so often today just because that is the way it has always been. 1095 almost disappeared and then had a comeback recently. There was a demand for it and for many of us it was a chance to see what the old time steel was like in a new knife. Sometimes it was love at first sharpen and for others the steel grew on them. For yet others the tradeoff wasn't to their liking.


How long will the 1095 renaissance last? Beats me. It might be a thing of the past in another few years for all I know. But if it does I am glad I got a chance to buy a new knife, sharpen and carry it, and watch it age gracefully in my pocket.

Will
 
I really love old steel, the colour of patina, the smell and the smaller lenght of old pocket folding knives. That's the reason why I've started collecting some. But I like to use knives!! Also the olders, and I take them in my pocket every day. So now I'm discovering that I have to strop them almost daily. So when I read that 1095 holds edge very well, I disagree. But my heart wins and I will carry my Russell, Schrade etc. and I'm proud saying that the knife has more than 100 years!!!
 
DrPenguin said:
It is a sign of getting older (egads!) that I remember not too long ago when almost all US made traditionals you would see were stainless. Case carbon steel offerings were scarce as hens teeth but they were CV not 1095. Online everything seemed to be SS. I also remember that about this time the boys who started up GEC were at Queen and they came out with these beautiful 1095 offerings. The Mountain Man Trapper, the canoe series, the mini-trapper. Maybe a couple others that escape me at this time. Anyway they were handsome, very well done, sold in plain wax paper, and a precursor of what was to be Great Eastern.

I bring that up to say that I can still remember the buzz that arose when these beautiful old time traditionals came out with Grandad's steel: 1095.

At the time, maybe 10 years ago, 1095 wasn't seen too often. And if it does have some shortcomings compared to stainless (and it does) it also offsets these to some degree with some very good performance and maintenance characteristics. It's a tradeoff for sure. But 1095 isn't seen so often today just because that is the way it has always been. 1095 almost disappeared and then had a comeback recently. There was a demand for it and for many of us it was a chance to see what the old time steel was like in a new knife. Sometimes it was love at first sharpen and for others the steel grew on them. For yet others the tradeoff wasn't to their liking.


How long will the 1095 renaissance last? Beats me. It might be a thing of the past in another few years for all I know. But if it does I am glad I got a chance to buy a new knife, sharpen and carry it, and watch it age gracefully in my pocket.

Will
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Will, I agree that SS seemed to be in abundance 10 years ago, especially from Case. But keep in mind that 11 years ago... or maybe it was 12 or so... you could buy a Schrade Old Timer w/ 1095 blade steel for next to nothing. They were readily available. IMHO the quality of the OT knives was very good also. More expensive knives from Moore Maker (Queen) also used 1095 steel.
 
stef142: Sounds like something Wooderson would have said on Dazed and Confused. Come to think of it me and Matthew Mac are about the same age: old! :)

supratentorial: Yep, I remember the Moore Makers from that time as well. Man you don't hear much about them at all on this forum do you? Old Timer was moving or had just finished moving to China, so you are right in that you could have gotten a USA made one although time was running out.

Not to threadjack to much but thinking about that time brought something to mind. In particular the sort of mood surrounding the traditional forums around this time. Case was in bad repute and it seemed like 95% of their effort was Elvis and John Wayne commemorative stuff with gawdy colored handles. Old Timer was on the ropes and looked to be circling the drain. Queen was trying to do better and was coming out with some exciting stuff but their quality was hit and miss to put it politely.

All of this added up to a sort of cloud that hung over almost all of the traditional forums. It was like the days of the traditional knife were numbered and everyone "knew" it. You don't get that vibe anymore. At least I don't. We have quite a few smaller companies making some really high quality stuff. We have a list of capable and very reputable custom makers who are turning out some absolutely awe inspiring and functional works of art. Even the remaining big guys like Case and Queen are retooling and rethinking their business models. It is good to see.

The renaissance of 1095 wasn't the only one that seems to have occurred. Again, is it permanent? I don't know. But it seems to be easier to get a high quality knife that it used to be. And the steels that are available in them is wider than it used to be. And that is cool with me. I love carbon steel and it is what I choose. But I have to humbly admit that on the other side of that tradeoff I mentioned before are some very impressive steels. And having the choice of D2 or 440C or some other high quality stainless steel in a traditional is absolutely fine by me. Especially if it encourages some fellow to experience the magic simplicity of traditional knives.

It's something worth saving if you ask me.

Will
 
I have a 34+ year old SAK Passenger model that was well used by me when in the service. It's been to Panama, Colombia, Bolivia, Peru, Grenada, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and a few other places I won't mention, and it was essentially treated the way tools are treated by service members...like a junk yard dog. Today, I was able to cleanly slice typing paper like a brand new knife, and, this knife has never been sharpened ever. I don't really know the specifics of the steel commonly used by Victorinox, but I'm of the opinion it's more than most knifeaholics will ever need in a lifetime.
 
Alnamvet68 said:
I have a 34+ year old SAK Passenger model that was well used by me when in the service. It's been to Panama, Colombia, Bolivia, Peru, Grenada, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and a few other places I won't mention, and it was essentially treated the way tools are treated by service members...like a junk yard dog. Today, I was able to cleanly slice typing paper like a brand new knife, and, this knife has never been sharpened ever. I don't really know the specifics of the steel commonly used by Victorinox, but I'm of the opinion it's more than most knifeaholics will ever need in a lifetime.
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I understand the new ones use 440a. What yours has I don't know. It's amazing your knife has held it's edge so well. Just goes to show the power of stainless.
 
Student762 said:
I live in what is classed as a rural town where I'm currently studying at the community college there and two of my manual arts teachers I know carry two knives daily. One of them grew up in this area on a farm where his mother and father used to cut and split fence posts with a cross cut saw and the tree was then subsequently split with wedges and hammers, not a chainsaw in sight. His two knives are a Victorinox classic which handles most of his tasks if a student is around and then an cheapo lockback. All stainless steel. I asked him why stainless and he said because it doesn't rust. The other farm teacher is a habitual whittler (like myself) and carries again a lockback and then a super tinker. I was chatting to him about whittling and so forth and he again said stainless doesn't rust. These are guys who still utilise the imperial system and can count out pounds pennies and shillings if you ask.
They're not knife knuts but they're users. Hard users at that. Edge geometry, retention and so forth mean little to them, but rusting clearly does. For them a knife has little romance or such attached to it and thus the benefits of lower maintenance with stainless is all that matters and that's pretty much where I fall too. I adore my Charlow in 1095 but the knives I reach for when it gets dirty or tough are made of stainless. Like my farm teachers there's little case I can make for carbon over stainless when being worked hard during a day.
Forgive the ramble but that's where I fall with this, technological advancement is just that, an advancement.
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I'm the same way! With firearms too! Stainless doesn't rust! End of story! Them old farmers would have rented out their wives and daughters for stainless!
 
I agree with you Dean51! One thing that kept coming to my mind is if you do the steel snob thing you're going to miss out on some really nice knives! Lots of good stuff out there and you don't have to lay done a fortune to enjoy it!
 
I hear you. I can understand personal preference but the animosity SOME seem to have toward newer steels and the subtle shots(as if only mall ninjas or those easily taken in by advertising would buy them) puzzling. It's not like a good knife in 1095 is cheaper than a good knife in a newer steel. A BM grip is cheaper than my GEC .

I used to sharpen my M2, s30v and 154cm knives on a whim when I felt like it, they stayed sharp for a while. Now I'm sharpening my 1095 often because I need to. Nor do I find 1095 noticeably easier to sharpen than s30v or 154. M2, yeah 1095's easier :p.

But my GEC certainly is a looker and it's nice to have one blade for dirty work and one blade for food.
Dean51 said:
Yet I keep reading comments like..........
“I wonder what kind of day in day out tasks people who want the 'super' or newer steels are planning on subjecting their knives to??
“What are super steel users planning on doing with their knives?”

I don't understand these kind of statements but for me the answer is, nothing you should not do with a slip joint. Maybe I just do more of it.

My new favorite comment.....
“What you have to realize is, the whole super steel thing is a huge con.”

If the whole super steel thing is a huge con, then by the same logic, the whole argument that all you need is 1095 is a huge con.
Just because a person can get by with 1095, does that mean they have to?

My Question is why do some people who like traditionals, seem to hate any steel that is not 1095?
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Peter Parker said:
I agree with you Dean51! One thing that kept coming to my mind is if you do the steel snob thing you're going to miss out on some really nice knives! Lots of good stuff out there and you don't have to lay done a fortune to enjoy it!
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True
I don't think of myself as a steel snob at least not when you look at some of the steels in the general forum. If you compare me to a lot of the folks on the porch here, then maybe I am a little.

I never should have looked at the What Makes a Good, Traditional Barlow? Thread.
A knife I would love is a TC Barlow, in particular a Peachseed Jigged Bone with a spear point. 3-1/2” of perfection. :D But. It's 1095 & I have this mental picture of it after a day of being covered in fish slime and bait. It's not a pretty picture. If it come back rusty, I'd go nutty as a fruit cake. So unless/until I can talk myself into a sunday go to meetings knife. I'm working on it by the way, maybe someday.

So I have limited my choices but the same is true if I only used 1095. I'd miss my stainless, especially my Northwoods IRJ's.
 
I've got plenty of 1095 traditionals, as well as some Queens in D2. They're all good, but I would love to be able to find a medium to large stockman in Hitachi White/Blue, CPM M4, M2 HSS, or M390. I think if they are properly heat treated (I mean very hard), they would really shine in a traditional pattern, as well as being very, very quick to touch up or sharpen. Even 1095 can be taken up to 65 HRC or so, and it excels at that hardness. Since stockmans are for cutting and not prying, it would be the best of both worlds, to me at least.
 
hatchettjack said:
Stainless doesn't rust! End of story!
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I honestly don't understand how this "Stainless doesn't rust!" nonsense is still so prevalent. I mean, am I really unlucky? I have, from my personal experience, seen 420J2 rust, BD1 rust, 420HC rust, S30V rust and whatever steel Ginsu uses rust. Those are just what I have had personally rust on me, no harsh chemicals, no intention to try to rust them, just from either cutting fruit, not being fully dried off after exposed to water, and being near to steam. It's called stainless because it stains less, not stains never.

As for the original topic, I personally like both stainless and carbon steels for traditionals. It is true that carbon requires more attention, and it dulls pretty quickly on foods, but it has some sort of charm about it that draws me in. I like the look of a patina as well. I personally like stainless steels for when I am welding, as I tend to sweat quite a bit, and the heat tends to evaporate the layer of oil on my pocket knives. Luckily, my sweat doesn't seem to be bad enough to rust any of my stainless knives so far.
 
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Stainless is not called stainfree for a reason. ;)

Personally I've never had a stainless knife rust and can think of only one or two that might have shown a little oxidation. I'm talking hundreds of knives.

I like my folders in stainless. Fixed blades can be either, as far as I'm concerned. To me they are much easier to maintain.
 
Alnamvet68 said:
I have a 34+ year old SAK Passenger model that was well used by me when in the service. It's been to Panama, Colombia, Bolivia, Peru, Grenada, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and a few other places I won't mention, and it was essentially treated the way tools are treated by service members...like a junk yard dog. Today, I was able to cleanly slice typing paper like a brand new knife, and, this knife has never been sharpened ever. I don't really know the specifics of the steel commonly used by Victorinox, but I'm of the opinion it's more than most knifeaholics will ever need in a lifetime.
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bt93 said:
I understand the new ones use 440a. What yours has I don't know. It's amazing your knife has held it's edge so well. Just goes to show the power of stainless.
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Victorinox's current stainless is X50CrMoV15, a German stainless more closely similar to 420HC than 440A. 440A has both higher carbon and much higher chromium content than X50CrMoV15. That being said, Victorinox's stainless (@ 55-56 HRC) is very easy to live with, taking great edges easily and easy to maintain. :thumbup:


David
 
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