Old vs. Modern - Tradiitionals only - an unscientific comparison and observation

Hold on now, I think I was too short in my answer. I would like to rephrase. Some knives whose craftsman imparts pride of work and quality effort in every knife they build, builds a spirit into the knife. Spirit can also be imparted by the owner(s). A knife passed down the generations, one that has seen many a day, but still is well feathered, or just plain found by the luck of the knife gods, that you just know has been carried with pride for untold adventures, carries within the spirit of those users of the past. Yes, they are tools but special tools.

300
 
I love these thoughts. Take a beautiful classical guitar for example. When you hold an instrument like this it far exceeds what it actually is. You sense the potential of the instrument as it is somehow alive, your touch is reverential. Even knowing how the instrument works still doesn't take away that magic. My father hypothesized that an experienced woodsman walking among the trees looking for wood to make the neck of a guitar for example isn't solely using his innate knowledge to choose and fell a tree. Rather, perhaps the tree conveys that message to the woodsman, 'here I am, waiting for this purpose'. This is what life is about and it's part of our understanding and celebrating being human and our place on Earth.

I'd best be off to bed:)

Sam
 
I too like older knives Cases & Schrades. I like the feel (worn) , look and history. That's also the reason I rarely carry one. I don't want to ruin it. It's also why I rarely buy mail order anymore. I like to look them over see if they speak to me. I do like Cases Pocket Worn because I known a little more care was taken in finishing. As much as I switch my daily carry knife I'll never wear one down enough.

Sent from my Ally
 
brownshoe said:
Well for a completely different perspective, here comes me. I like the construction of Case/Bose knives because they update the patterns with modern materials...which are better. The 154CM steel holds an edge better than Case TS and Case CV. The steel liners and bolsters provide much better structural integrity. I have seen many nickel silver and brass lined knives with structural problems after hard or extended use. The brushed steel bolsters are easy to keep sharp looking with a little steel wool. I've seen many blades sharpened to next to nothing which will not happen as quickly with 154CM at 58 rockwell. Since most of you don't even use your Case/Bose collaborations, how can you judge?

As far as "it is as though some knives have a 'spirit' or personality. It can be experienced but not measured" I believe this is just tomfoolery by knife people to justify buying a new knife. :) Sure, knives talk to me and I put them in my pocket, but it is still just an object and I know I am crazy :)
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You are correct in the comment that the modern materials are better - I even noted that, but at the same time you missed the point. I, by the way have used my Case / Bose collaborations, so I guess I can judge. These best of the modern, with patterns updated with modern materials, do not work and feel the same as the best of the older knives. I hope that you get to experience it yourself someday.
 
avoidspam said:
Know exactly what you mean!

I have a beautiful Moki made knife with near perfect fit and finish but the knife looks too clinical somehow. This is where I think GEC have got it right, don't get me wrong, their F&F is very good but they have managed to preserve that old fashioned feel. Perhaps a lot of that is down to them using old tooling machines but I think it's the whole package:)

Sam
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Sam - GEC does a great job, and I think if they made a pattern with nickel silver liners and bolsters, and sprung them a little lighter, without a half stop, they would begin to capture that spirit.
 
Gents, we are all friends here. Lets remember that in our discussions, even when we disagree with our friends.

It's always a good thing to say what we do with our own knives.
It is seldom wise to tell someone else what they do with theirs. They probably already know.
 
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300Bucks said:
Hold on now, I think I was too short in my answer. I would like to rephrase. Some knives whose craftsman imparts pride of work and quality effort in every knife they build, builds a spirit into the knife. Spirit can also be imparted by the owner(s). A knife passed down the generations, one that has seen many a day, but still is well feathered, or just plain found by the luck of the knife gods, that you just know has been carried with pride for untold adventures, carries within the spirit of those users of the past. Yes, they are tools but special tools.

300
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VERY nicely said. Personally, couldn't agree more.

Bravo!

Robert
 
300Bucks said:
Hold on now, I think I was too short in my answer. I would like to rephrase. Some knives whose craftsman imparts pride of work and quality effort in every knife they build, builds a spirit into the knife. Spirit can also be imparted by the owner(s). A knife passed down the generations, one that has seen many a day, but still is well feathered, or just plain found by the luck of the knife gods, that you just know has been carried with pride for untold adventures, carries within the spirit of those users of the past. Yes, they are tools but special tools.

300
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Could not have said it better myself
 
Most people on this forum state that they rarely carry their Case/Bose, some never. On the thread cocerning what you're carrying today, the Case/Bose knives usually show little or no wear. Most of the people who bellyache about the quality of Case/Bose at their "price point" probably can't afford them, so I assume they rarely, if ever use them. So I made an assumption, shoot me :)

If you use your Case/Bose is the "experience" worse, as implied in this thread, just different, or better? I think they are better, head over tails better, than most of the old knives I've seen. There is a reason why Tony Bose is the most sought after slipjoint maker in the world, and it's not just his fit and finish. It's also his overall take on the design and his materials.

"These best of the modern, with patterns updated with modern materials, do not work and feel the same as the best of the older knives. I hope that you get to experience it yourself someday. " I have old knives and I appreciate them. I see many every year and buy a few. I agree, they do not work or feel the same as a Case/Bose. I just think the Case/Bose is better.

I'll give you an example. I like shiny knives, but hate rust and maintenance. I keep my old knives polished and rust free. Don't have to that nearly as often with the stainless Case/Bose, except for the nickel silver shield on my ebony ones. I wanted a steel shield and called up Case as to why it was nickel silver (liner pins too). Steel is not amenable to the final finishing for wood, but nickel silver is.

I'll give you another example, the relieved liners in the Case/Bose keep the tang scratch free. Not really seen in older knives.
 
300Bucks said:
Hold on now, I think I was too short in my answer. I would like to rephrase. Some knives whose craftsman imparts pride of work and quality effort in every knife they build, builds a spirit into the knife. Spirit can also be imparted by the owner(s). A knife passed down the generations, one that has seen many a day, but still is well feathered, or just plain found by the luck of the knife gods, that you just know has been carried with pride for untold adventures, carries within the spirit of those users of the past. Yes, they are tools but special tools.
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This is worth quoting and emphasizing.

Grant Peterson is the driving force behind Rivendell Bike Works, a maker of traditional lugged steel bikes, a venue where this same basic discussion plays out. He's coined a great term for the effect of beauty that comes from usage - "Beausage".

Real beausage can't be faked, in my mind, which is why forced patinas on 1095 blades look forced and not earned. And imo, beausage is either there or it isn't. No amount of artisanal perfection can impart beausage, which is why stunningly perfectly crafted knives (or bikes) that sit unused leave me so cold feeling. Yes, they have some "spirit" as 300Bucks has put it, but it is only the "spirit" of the artisan. It's not the same.

Don't get me wrong. The spirit of the maker is critically important to me for knives and bikes (and all things really and yes, please feel free to capitalize Maker). It is impossible for me to pick up any created object without considering who made, how they made it and under what sort of conditions. I don't mean to dismiss the maker's spirit in this at all. But, that's not enough for me.

I make things and when I make something and give it or sell it to somebody and I later find out the thing wasn't used, I get sad. Really, really sad. I feel the same way when I see a collectible car up on blocks or when I see a collectible bike hung on a wall. Yes, as a collector, I'm fascinated by seeing something preserved as close to original as possible but it's the same sort of thin enjoyment I get from seeing a Zebra or an otter in a zoo. Incredible animal and sad that it's there, in a zoo and not living it's life as intended.

Beausage is the sign of a knife that is living out it's life as it was meant to.
 
brownshoe, you are correct that the cutting ability of most recent production (or custom) folding knives is superior to any vintage knife. Knife steels have improved greatly. They can be tempered to a higher Rc and so edge hold longer and the finer grain structure allows them to take a finer(sharper) edge.
I think what the OP is talking about is the emotional response many of us feel towards our knives.
Many of my vintage and custom folders give me a feeling of companionship that is a very enjoyable experience. I don't get this same feeling from current production knives, including my Case/Bose collabs, with one exception. My ebony Norfolk does have this extra dimension that is so difficult to express with words. But it is an experience that when it occurs, you know it.
roland
 
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300Bucks said:
Carl and all, I know what it is.

Back then someone finished a knife, held it up in the light at arms length, studied it over, glanced over at the guy next to him who looked from his work, nodded his head once and went back to work. Thats when the spirit enters.

300Bucks
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I firmly believe that is the key.
Those old pups we enjoy were the product of talented hands that knew what they were doing and took pride in what they were doing. They probably were not "punished" for taking extra time at a buffer to get things working a little smoother. I get a silly smile on my face when I pick up a 60, 70 or more year old knife that has seen a lot of use and honest wear that has better action than a newer knife.
 
I must be the odd man out. I feel a knife must earn it's soul in use; it doesnt come with it imbued. To me, each cut, each adventure adds to to soul of tpa knife, not its steel alloy, not its materials. A fishing trip, a hunt, a simple cut which makes you go "huh nice" and appreciate the knife a little bit more. I have several newer knives which mean more to me than any old one I may find, the history must be earned with me.
 
Django.cj said:
I must be the odd man out. I feel a knife must earn it's soul in use; it doesnt come with it imbued. To me, each cut, each adventure adds to to soul of tpa knife, not its steel alloy, not its materials. A fishing trip, a hunt, a simple cut which makes you go "huh nice" and appreciate the knife a little bit more. I have several newer knives which mean more to me than any old one I may find, the history must be earned with me.
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I agree. It's the user that makes the knife special.

My Buck 301 has a few battle scars already. The bolsters are tore up from me sticking it in a vice clap(in my defense I was a little buzzed lol), The bolsters are goldish from being in my pocket when I worked around chemicals, the blades have blade play etc. Normally all these "scars" would bug me, but nope I still use it. To anyone else it's a beat up pocket knife, but to me it's something more.

But anyway, I would love to get some old Case knives. I heard their F&F are close to GEC's.
 
matt1987 said:
My Buck 301 has a few battle scars already. The bolsters are tore up from me sticking it in a vice clap(in my defense I was a little buzzed lol), The bolsters are goldish from being in my pocket when I worked around chemicals, the blades have blade play etc. Normally all these "scars" would bug me, but nope I still use it. To anyone else it's a beat up pocket knife, but to me it's something more.
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just outta curiosity, how long you had your 301?
 
rprocter said:
brownshoe, you are correct that the cutting ability of most recent production (or custom) folding knives is superior to any vintage knife. Knife steels have improved greatly. They can be tempered to a higher Rc and so edge hold longer and the finer grain structure allows them to take a finer(sharper) edge.
I think what the OP is talking about is the emotional response many of us feel towards our knives.
Many of my vintage and custom folders give me a feeling of companionship that is a very enjoyable experience. I don't get this same feeling from current production knives, including my Case/Bose collabs, with one exception. My ebony Norfolk does have this extra dimension that is so difficult to express with words. But it is an experience that when it occurs, you know it.
roland
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Roland - That was my point exactly. No disrespect to the modern Case / Bose offerings as far as them being capable matter separators. They are, and I noted their advantages as a cutting tool in my original post - and I do appreciate them for what they are. They are however, cold and austere in their existence - without any personality or real charisma. Even some customs have this same perfect, and solemn clinical nature. Like you said - it is hard to describe, but you know it when it is there. :thumbup:
 
Django.cj said:
I must be the odd man out. I feel a knife must earn it's soul in use; it doesnt come with it imbued. To me, each cut, each adventure adds to to soul of tpa knife, not its steel alloy, not its materials. A fishing trip, a hunt, a simple cut which makes you go "huh nice" and appreciate the knife a little bit more. I have several newer knives which mean more to me than any old one I may find, the history must be earned with me.
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This is absolutely true, but not what I was referring to in this post. The adventures shared with your favorite possession do give it meaning and real character, but mostly to you, and only you. What I was referring to is inherent in the item, before it shares your life, your adventures.
 
They become an extesion of ones self for both the maker and the user, and both make it so. I could
afford to put a new one of my knives in my pocket tommorow and I'm sure it would take a while
For it to feel like the toothpick I've been carrying for a while. Not my position to judge knives from
other makers or manufacturers I'm pretty sure thats what EDC is about, not that its in any way bad.
No different than myself having certain guns I like better or that feel "different"
Ken.
 
My take is that the vintage knives are just better built knives and that is why I like them. It is true that modern customs can be better built knives, but it would be hard to convince me that modern production knives are as well built as the vintage production knives. On my vintage knives everything lines up, no gaps or wobble, the shields are pinned on not glued on. The vintage blades may not have the modern steel but they are thicker and besides I have never had an issue with my knife not being sharp regardless of steel or year produced.

I had the same philosophy when buying my house. I didn't want one of those new cookie cutter houses that were slapped together in a week. I wanted a house that was well built with everyting level and plumb so I bought an older house and my friends with newer houses always complain about how poorly built their new houses are. I use the same philosophy in just about everything I buy. I want the best built and to me vintage knives are better built compared to today's production knives.
 
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