Old vs. Modern - Tradiitionals only - an unscientific comparison and observation

DavidZ said:
Roland - That was my point exactly. No disrespect to the modern Case / Bose offerings as far as them being capable matter separators. They are, and I noted their advantages as a cutting tool in my original post - and I do appreciate them for what they are. They are however, cold and austere in their existence - without any personality or real charisma. Even some customs have this same perfect, and solemn clinical nature. Like you said - it is hard to describe, but you know it when it is there. :thumbup:
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I find this entire point to be missing.

Case/Bose collaboration knives, imo, are the BEST factory made slipjoints. Ever.

So much so, that I make a point to see the Case booth at SHOT when I attend to see what is new, and this year, it is a winner in the Lanny's Clip.

Stainless bolsters and liners.....no rust, harder than brass or nickel silver, and finished beautifully.

Great steel-Tony Bose helped Case with the heat treat recipe.

An excellent selection of handle materials.

Slipjoints are a handle and a blade....an assertion of "soul" is not only unscientific, it is sentimental and negligent of the purpose of a knife....to cut, and cut well. Those that focus on the sentimental miss out on the fact that multiblades add more useable "cut", and not much else from a practical perspective.

If you want "soul" put on an Aretha Franklin record/cd.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
STeven, surely some of your custom knives appeal to you more than do the others ?
If so, why ?
Do you like them in the order of their degree of technical precision ? Or are there some that might not be the tops in technical brilliance, nor have the most exotic high end materials, yet you find them to have a special appeal ? Might some of these 'lesser' ones even be among your favorites ? And if so, what is it then that makes them your favorites ?
Assigning a 'soul' or 'spirit' to an inanimate object is simply a way of saying you do not know exactly why a certain knife arouses within you such a pleasurable feeling and sense of attachment.
Surely you have had this experience ?
roland
 
rprocter said:
STeven, surely some of your custom knives appeal to you more than do the others ?
If so, why ?
Do you like them in the order of their degree of technical precision ? Or are there some that might not be the tops in technical brilliance, nor have the most exotic high end materials, yet you find them to have a special appeal ? Might some of these 'lesser' ones even be among your favorites ? And if so, what is it then that makes them your favorites ?
Assigning a 'soul' or 'spirit' to an inanimate object is simply a way of saying you do not know exactly why a certain knife arouses within you such a pleasurable feeling and sense of attachment.
Surely you have had this experience ?
roland
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Well put!
 
rprocter said:
STeven, surely some of your custom knives appeal to you more than do the others ?
If so, why ?
Do you like them in the order of their degree of technical precision ? Or are there some that might not be the tops in technical brilliance, nor have the most exotic high end materials, yet you find them to have a special appeal ? Might some of these 'lesser' ones even be among your favorites ? And if so, what is it then that makes them your favorites ?
Assigning a 'soul' or 'spirit' to an inanimate object is simply a way of saying you do not know exactly why a certain knife arouses within you such a pleasurable feeling and sense of attachment.
Surely you have had this experience ?
roland
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Roland, hope you are well.

All of my customs speak to a level of precision, but more importantly, function and execution than any factory knife I have ever owned OR seen.

Side to side play, springs laying flat in all positions, spring tension(I like about a 6 on the pull scale), materials(stag and pearls for the handles), grind(these blades CUT), and overall finish.

The Case/Bose knives are the only knife that has even come close to the customs in these overall criteria. The customs include Erickson, Halfrich, Hampton, Hanson, Rogers and Ruple.

There are two "lesser" models, a lovely two blade wharncliffe trapper by Ohta that is a "4" on the pull scale, and a study-in-contradiction, harness jack from Al Warren with about an "8" pull and pearl scales....it's a bit of a user. Neither are my favorites.

Favorites are all of them, there has been quite a winnowing process to get where I am at, and there hasn't been much if any sentimentality involved in the selection process. The knives in the current slipjoint grouping are there because they meet and exceed my expectations of a slipjoint knife and THAT is what brings me pleasure and certainly a sense of attachment.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
I find this entire point to be missing.

Case/Bose collaboration knives, imo, are the BEST factory made slipjoints. Ever.

So much so, that I make a point to see the Case booth at SHOT when I attend to see what is new, and this year, it is a winner in the Lanny's Clip.

Stainless bolsters and liners.....no rust, harder than brass or nickel silver, and finished beautifully.

Great steel-Tony Bose helped Case with the heat treat recipe.

An excellent selection of handle materials.

Slipjoints are a handle and a blade....an assertion of "soul" is not only unscientific, it is sentimental and negligent of the purpose of a knife....to cut, and cut well. Those that focus on the sentimental miss out on the fact that multiblades add more useable "cut", and not much else from a practical perspective.

If you want "soul" put on an Aretha Franklin record/cd.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Good morning Steven,

I think everyone has something different that they look for in a knife. Some want the best value, some want the absolute best materials and FF/Execution and they are willing to pay for it. It seems each person has their own set of standards to evaluate overall value and FF/Execution.

Keeping with the idea that a slipjoint is just a blade and a handle, well, most knives are. Any capable person could pick up a 10 dollar Opinel that CUTS and be good to go. It seems the rest comes down to what a particular person values in a knife. What moves them and what really gets them to open their wallet.

I spent a long time doing the same as you and going for knives with the most technically superior materials and build. I have different things that are my pet peeves also. Having both customs and productions in a pretty wide range of the spectrum I can say I do see the differences. There is no way anyone can discount technical superiority.

On the same token, someone else may see the brass liners and pins, nickel silver bolsters and carbon steel blades as good enough. Some may see them as superior to the latest and greatest combinations. I completely understand what you are saying though. It is like you said, scientific and can be proven on paper. It is substantial and all the feelings people are posting about are not. I still would never say these observations are imaginary and inconsequential. I think people should use what works for them and feels right.

Reading this thread it seemed credit was given where it was due when it comes to technical superiority in regards to the latest standards. Where each person ends up in the knife world makes little difference to me. I have what works for me, and thats that.

Respectfully,
 
richstag said:
I think everyone has something different that they look for in a knife. Some want the best value, some want the absolute best materials and FF/Execution and they are willing to pay for it. It seems each person has their own set of standards to evaluate overall value and FF/Execution......
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I get that. This isn't some "mine is better, yours suck" position. The OP spoke to the C/B collabs specifically, and they are as a whole, something I admire, respect and find fascinating....there was a bit of a callout, and mine is a bit of an answer to that callout. Doesn't make the OP "wrong", but he is completely on the different side of priorities from mine.

richstag said:
I spent a long time doing the same as you and going for knives with the most technically superior materials and build. I have different things that are my pet peeves also. Having both customs and productions in a pretty wide range of the spectrum I can say I do see the differences. There is no way anyone can discount technical superiority.
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There are many in the Traditional forae that attempt to discount technical superiority as "cold", "soulless" and "lifeless".....I find this misdirected. It's like lamenting the change from corded, dialed phones to cordless, digital phones. Clearly superior, but don't work in a blackout. My response......GENERATOR or SOLAR!

richstag said:
On the same token, someone else may see the brass liners and pins, nickel silver bolsters and carbon steel blades as good enough. Some may see them as superior to the latest and greatest combinations. I completely understand what you are saying though. It is like you said, scientific and can be proven on paper. It is substantial and all the feelings people are posting about are not. I still would never say these observations are imaginary and inconsequential. I think people should use what works for them and feels right.
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I agree that people should use (and collect) what they like. They should also tread very cautiously into casting aspersions on something that represents the pinnacle of factory built knives in the name of promoting "soul" and intangibles. While I "get it"......I don't agree. In a word, stainless rules!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I don't have anything to add Steven. I feel you understand my point and I understand yours. :)
 
"Roland, hope you are well"
STeven it's kind of you to be concerned.
I too wonder if my ramblings here and my insatiable passion for knives, all coming on since i passed 60, are but early signs of well earned dementia.
Nonetheless, i will soldier on and continue to post perceived insights because i'm having fun and i enjoy creative writing.
roland
 
I was wondering...if a communist assembles a pocket knife, does it have a communist soul? Geeze, I hope that's not a political question :p
 
Interesting topic! I guess I feel strongly both ways on this one. I agree with STeven's objective observation that "the Case/Bose collaboration knives, imo, are the BEST factory made slipjoints. Ever." I was a fairly serious collector of antique slipjoints for over three decades, but I've never seen an old factory knife, no matter how iconic the maker, whose workmanship and materials equal the annual Case/Bose collaboration knives. I've seen quite a few factory oldies that I'd much rather own from a collectable and/or aesthetic standpoint, but none that I'd rather carry if I had to choose a single serious traditional user for life.

It's all too easy to imbue an old pocketknife with "soul;" I do it all the time. Antiques fire the imagination. They're like tangible voices calling out us from the past, "haunted" by our subjective perception of their long-dead owners, users and makers, but I try to remain objective when it comes to assessing the workmanship and function of what is, when it comes right down to it, a basic utilitarian tool, no matter how venerable it appears to be.

Imagine owning something rare and valuable like a seldom used, meticulously cared for old Remington Bullet Trapper- just close your eyes and take in the heft and texture of that beautiful rich bone; the smell of the old oil; the feel of that "peerless" walk 'n' talk: Our erstwhile collector paid around $3K for it--one thousand times more than its original retail price in the 1920s and '30s--and it's the most "soulful" object he or she has ever touched. Now imagine that, years later, we discover that it's a lowly parts knife, albeit one with flawless imitation crocus and glaze finishes and a crisp counterfeit etch, all painstakingly assembled by a pro with the sole intent of ripping off an unsuspecting collector. Not so "soulful" anymore, is it? Sadly, this little scenario is fairly commonplace in our hobby.

When it comes to our passion for romanticized icons, perception often trumps reality, as long as reality is kind enough to keep its mouth shut, but ultimately, we're discussing 'objects' here, not spun sugar, moonbeams, hopes and dreams. A good GEC, with their solid build quality and excellent blade steel, edge geometry and heat treatment is, IMO, a match for most any old knife in every way that matters as a serious tool, short of superficial cosmetic blade finish (GEC's high polish really isn't all that high), and the Case/Bose knives are a few steps up from there. Maybe that's all the "soul" I need these days.

I think it was William Ralph Inge who said "There are two kinds of fools: one says, This is old, therefore it is good; the other says, This is new, therefore it is better." I guess I'm a bit of both. :eek:
 
Rick said:
Interesting topic! I guess I feel strongly both ways on this one. I agree with STeven's objective observation that "the Case/Bose collaboration knives, imo, are the BEST factory made slipjoints. Ever." I was a fairly serious collector of antique slipjoints for over three decades, but I've never seen an old factory knife, no matter how iconic the maker, whose workmanship and materials equal the annual Case/Bose collaboration knives. I've seen quite a few factory oldies that I'd much rather own from a collectable and/or aesthetic standpoint, but none that I'd rather carry if I had to choose a single serious traditional user for life.

It's all too easy to imbue an old pocketknife with "soul;" I do it all the time. Antiques fire the imagination. They're like tangible voices calling out us from the past, "haunted" by our subjective perception of their long-dead owners, users and makers, but I try to remain objective when it comes to assessing the workmanship and function of what is, when it comes right down to it, a basic utilitarian tool, no matter how venerable it appears to be.

Imagine owning something rare and valuable like a seldom used, meticulously cared for old Remington Bullet Trapper- just close your eyes and take in the heft and texture of that beautiful rich bone; the smell of the old oil; the feel of that "peerless" walk 'n' talk: Our erstwhile collector paid around $3K for it--one thousand times more than its original retail price in the 1920s and '30s--and it's the most "soulful" object he or she has ever touched. Now imagine that, years later, we discover that it's a lowly parts knife, albeit one with flawless imitation crocus and glaze finishes and a crisp counterfeit etch, all painstakingly assembled by a pro with the sole intent of ripping off an unsuspecting collector. Not so "soulful" anymore, is it? Sadly, this little scenario is fairly commonplace in our hobby.

When it comes to our passion for romanticized icons, perception often trumps reality, as long as reality is kind enough to keep its mouth shut, but ultimately, we're discussing 'objects' here, not spun sugar, moonbeams, hopes and dreams. A good GEC, with their solid build quality and excellent blade steel, edge geometry and heat treatment is, IMO, a match for most any old knife in every way that matters as a serious tool, short of superficial cosmetic blade finish (GEC's high polish really isn't all that high), and the Case/Bose knives are a few steps up from there. Maybe that's all the "soul" I need these days.

I think it was William Ralph Inge who said "There are two kinds of fools: one says, This is old, therefore it is good; the other says, This is new, therefore it is better." I guess I'm a bit of both. :eek:
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Very, very well put, Rick!:thumb up:

In the end, reality is in the eye of the beholder. No two eyes will see it the same.

Carl.
 
Rick, good post, appreciate the perspective.

I'm not really into "standard" Case knives....the brass liner thing and some of the blade shapes don't do it for me.....that's going back to knives from 30-50 years ago.

The Case/Bose knives show what a solid manufacturer can do when they mostly throw price point considerations out the window and focus on making a great object. It takes work, dedication and belief in the project, and at this time, it is hard enough to simply manufacture just about ANYTHING in the U.S. due to worker wages and restrictions, EPA regulations, overhead and other criteria...I study this, and I live it.....there is no political slant here.

For Case to make a leap every year and dedicate the labor and funding to this project speaks to a calling of higher purpose....to truly excel at one model of a knife, every year.

This exhilarates me, as it displays possibility and gives me hope that greatness could take root again....how about that for "soul"?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Interesting to hear people's thoughts on the Case/bose Collaborations. I've been toying with picking one up but have been put off so far by the number of people who posted on here and youtube etc that they received theirs with finish issues, poorly centered blades...

Sam
 
The Case/Bose knives are certainly very good but as a.s. says above, too many are sent out with unacceptable "issues".
I've been lucky. The 3 i have (Yukon, Norfolk, Tribal Spear) are all 'right-on'.
But i don't see them as 'the best production knives ever made', or as such a huge step up from other production knives (except for the better steel). Also the amount of hype around them and peoples' relunctance to say anything 'critical' of a knife bearing the Bose name, gets rather boring.
Many production knives have a similar level of fit and finish, like most of the current GEC knives.
The absolute tops for current production knives that i have experience with come from China. The Hanwei/Ron Lake collaboration and the 5 big "Texas Ranger" folders from AGR are some examples of this superb workmanship.
Although they do not have the quality of steel, my vintage Sheffield folders are also a big step up in workmanship and fit and finish from the C/B knives.
roland
 
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rprocter said:
The Case/Bose knives are certainly very good but as a.s. says above, too many are sent out with unacceptable "issues".
I've been lucky. The 3 i have (Yukon, Norfolk, Tribal Spear) are all 'right-on'.
But i don't see them as 'the best production knives ever made', or as such a huge step up from other production knives (except for the better steel). Also the amount of hype around them and peoples' relunctance to say anything 'critical' of a knife bearing the Bose name, gets rather boring.
Many production knives have a similar level of fit and finish, like most of the current GEC knives.
The absolute tops for current production knives that i have experience with come from China. The Hanwei/Ron Lake collaboration and the 5 big "Texas Ranger" folders from AGR are some examples of this superb workmanship.
Although they do not have the quality of steel, my vintage Sheffield folders are also a big step up in workmanship and fit and finish from the C/B knives.
roland
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Roland, on this we disagree......I would as surely trash a C/B as ANY other knife if I felt it was deserved. I currently own only the Slimline Trapper, and it is a FANTASTIC knife, but I have handled the Whittler and the Zulu. If you can provide an example of a factory knife like the Whittler with the lock AND the slipjoint in one package that is superior to this model, I'll consider the statement.

Also, the bushings that Case uses at Tony's insistence on the C/B collabs offer a superior, especially in the long run, fit and function in the pivot area.

Just some of what makes the C/B collabs the best imo.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
A lockback Whittler, or other multibalde pattern with 1 lockback blade are uncommon so the comparison 'pool' is rather small.
I have a few original German Kissing Crane LB Whittlers, a recent China one and a Fight'n Rooster one. For Fit&Finish the China one is the best but i'm sure not up to the C/B LB Whittler.
It's easier to make comparison using other C/B knives as there are many more to compare with. However, i don't think the comparison needs to be pattern for pattern.
I have made my own comparisons from the thousands of knives that i own. My opinion is that aside from the steel, the C/B Collabs are very good knives but not The Best production folders ever made, or even currently made. For about 1/3-1/2 the price you can get a comparable GEC. The GEC steel is 'lesser' but still of plenty high enough quality that the vast majority of users wouldn't notice the difference. We would, but we're "knuts".
I say buy a collab if you like the pattern, don't buy one simply because it's a collab.
roland
 
rprocter said:
My opinion is that aside from the steel, the C/B Collabs are very good knives but not The Best production folders ever made, or even currently made. For about 1/3-1/2 the price you can get a comparable GEC. The GEC steel is 'lesser' but still of plenty high enough quality that the vast majority of users wouldn't notice the difference. We would, but we're "knuts".
I say buy a collab if you like the pattern, don't buy one simply because it's a collab.
roland
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I agree with the bolded statement, but would close with the fact that although you are comparing GEC to C/B collabs as comparable, the use of carbon steel by GEC as well as brass liners and nickel silver bolsters AUTOMATICALLY places them as inferior, imo.

Custom makers use stainless steel liners bolsters and blades because they are harder, don't rust and hold a much better finish longer than materials that patina/rust/oxidize. If GEC used stainless steel, I would purchase again in a heartbeat. As it is, I found my GEC Harness Jack a bit disappointing....again, stainless rules.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
At what price do we get technical superiority?

I have no doubt at all that the stainless steel is better than the old brass and nickel silver. But how much better do we need?

I for one, like the differing colors and textures of the brass and nickel silver. I'm sitting here looking at the knife Ihave been carrying for the last year, my Case damascus peanut. I love the soft gray of the blades, mellow golden color of the brass liners, and the nickel silver bolsters. If this knife was done in all stainless steel, it would loose most of it's appeal. It may actually become a bit boring in it's uniformity of parts.

I've never heard of a knife failing in use because the brass liners gave away. Nor had I heard of carbon steel being fragile in day to day use. I like the way the older materials let the knife age along with the person who is carrying it a long way. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In other words, different strokes for different folks. I also like older blued firearms, stainless steel leaves me cold, and I won't even go with what I think of plastic, or polymer as they like to call it.

Life is short, and beauty is to be appreciated where you find it. If one person finds it in older style materials, so be it. I don't see a problem with that. In my own view of life, I find objects made all out of the never aging new materials boring. My opinion only. But I'm free to love what I love.

Carl.
 
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