Older Buck knives hold better edge?

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OklahomaBryan

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Oct 14, 2014
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I have owned and used Buck knives since the 1960s. I also sold Buck knives as a dealer for about 25 years until I retired. It seems to me that the older 425 steel held a better edge than the current knives. I know that Buck changed their edge with the Edge 2000 and says it is easier to put edge on blade and that it will hold the edge better. I also used to be a professional knife sharpener and have found it is easy to put edge on the new line of blades, but I feel that they do not hold it as well as older models. I am talking about putting a 30 degree primary edge on the blade (15 per side) and then a 40 degree micro bevel (20 per side) on blades.

ANYWAY, I have two questions and I would kindly request that you address both questions if possible.

1--Did early knives with 425 steel get BOS heat treat?

2--Do you think earlier steel held better edge?

Thanks, Bryan
 
According to the Buck website Paul Bos helped set up Buck's in house heat treating in the late 70's. He ran his business out of the Buck factory and helped Buck so I would presume and Buck products made from then on, if not earlier would fall under the Bos heat treat.


I'd say the earlier steels did hold an edge better than the current 420HC because they were harder/tougher steels. Also harder to sharpen and harder on the equipment to make them. Their 440c is my favorite steel, production steel though the 425m and 420HC work for me as well. My absolute favorite steel used by Buck is ATS-34 with BG42 close behind.
 
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Bryan, thanks for your visit and welcome.
Paul was working for Buck in the 60's doing heat treating. All knives received his treatment. Buck began using 425M steel in 1981 with a fuller hollow grind. Yes, it received Mr. Boss's care. Then Buck moved to 420HC steel in 1994 and yes this steel received the same treatment. Before these dates Buck used 440C steel and yes Mr. Boss did most of that heat treating as well.
Mr. Boss has since retired from Buck some time in 2011 and Paul Farner took over that department. As he apprenticed under Paul Boss for several years. DM
 
Definately ,the older knives were of better quality and materials,the steel was way better than the 420 hc they use now.425 m is outstanding on a hunting knife,440c is right there with it too,I love the old knives and the steels used back then really held a great edge for a long time.
 
Another issue, besides the steel properties is the blade/edge geometry. The new Bucks are much different in that respect, and are easier to sharpen. The old style was thicker behind the edge so the edge held up better. The new ones cut better, though.
 
DocT:

I agree that if you used the older Buck grind that the blade was harder to sharpen and did not cut as well as the new blades---BUT if one would go to the trouble of reprofiling the blade at 30 degrees and apply a 40 degree micro bevel, then they will cut as well as new blades in my opinion. Another benefit is they would hold better edge than new ones. Bryan
 
Bryan,

Steels have changed a lot since the 60s. I suspect that if you tried a new Buck with S30V, you'll find it holds an edge longer than 440C.

420HC is like concrete made with sand (aka cement). 440C is like concrete made with relatively few large rocks. S30V is like concrete made with a lot of consistently sized medium gravel. The analogy here is rocks/sand to carbides.

440C has large carbides what will keep "sawing" through material even when dull but those same carbides make it a bit harder to sharpen in that it requires a sharpening stone capable of cutting those carbides (the rocks).

420HC has very fine carbides, which allows it to sharpened more easily and to take very fine edge - very much like 1095 when it has a good heat treat like Buck gives it. I have both 440C and 420HC knives available to me and I generally prefer 420HC for EDC and 440C for hunting. Horses for courses.

S30V is a more modern "powdered" steel that promises to pack more carbides in. I've not used it but people I trust (like moderator knarfang) really love it. It's known for holding an edge a really long time but it's hard enough to sharpen for some people that Buck offers a sharpening service.
 
I sharpen many knives and I just have done a s30v folding Kalinga that I purchased. I use a Ken Onion Work Sharp.
Here's a pic. It sharpened the s30v in 2 passes on each side. Afterwards it was like a razor and left no scratch marks. This sharpener can be switched from a 120 to a 6000 grit which is like a razor strop.

542186b1-eded-4299-9c9d-165098d2b227_zpsuc65jgl8.jpg


I clean the part it rubs on after every knife so there is no metal on the guide.

Ken%20Onion%20knife%20sharpener%20002_zpsgsivw2bc.jpg
 
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I've looked at those work sharps for a long time. I still haven't bought one.
 
They do a fantastic job plus I have all the optional heads that you can switch for things like mower blades. I don't know what happened to the first one I had one day. The plastic just cracked everywhere I sent the Manufacturer a e-mail with photos and they said for me to cut the cord and send them a picture of the machine without the cord. They sent me a brand new one and for a couple years now no problems. To tell the truth I hardly use the two other attachments. The knife sharpener is GREAT and no scratches if you clean it right after each sharpening. It put a razors edge on the s30v in 2 passes each side, very sharp.
 
Michael5135, I have a question about the Worksharp. I've been wanting one for awhile, but the only thing stopping me is my concern regarding metal loss. Do you find an excessive amount of steel removed from the blade during sharpening?
Thanks.
Jeff
 
420HC, 425M, and 440C all get their primary wear resistance from Iron Carbide arranged in a body centered cubic crystal lattice. 440C has twice as much Carbon as 420HC or 425M, so it can hold twice as much wear resistant Iron Carbide. 440C does not lend itself to fine blanking, so fine blankers like 425M and 420HC. 440C can be taken to a higher Rockwell hardness than 420HC or 425M. 440C is more expensive to buy and harder to process than 420C or 425M.
All said and done, I prefer 440C to the lower Carbon materials.
 
Jeff#103 said:
Michael5135, I have a question about the Worksharp. I've been wanting one for awhile, but the only thing stopping me is my concern regarding metal loss. Do you find an excessive amount of steel removed from the blade during sharpening?
Thanks.
Jeff
Click to expand...

Everything is adjustable belts come in coarse to (as a matter of fact After looking I thought I needed some belts today and saw some with 16000 grit.) The norm fine grit in the 6 belt package is 6000. The first few times I used the Work Sharp I was amazed at how sharp the blade had gotten and it looked like a brand new knife from buck super sharp. The only problem I found is sharpening wide blade knives like M9's, I have to take the guide off to do those so I go to a fine grit so I don't lose control I slow the motor down. It also is speed adjustable. If you want to make sure your angle is correct. One part to wear out is the rubber on the edge guide. Mine on both sides are cut in two so time to replace. I have to check in on getting those. I really like the Work Sharp it gets the job done and if you keep it clean after every knife no scratches. I was taping the blade and used a safety razor to cut just the tape on the blade away. If you keep it clean after every knife it doesn't scratch. I still tape when I sharpen knives that are not mine.
 
OklahomaBryan said:
1--Did early knives with 425 steel get BOS heat treat?

2--Do you think earlier steel held better edge?
Click to expand...

2. Yes

1. The BOS heat treat started in 1980, so yes, all the 425M got it.

An interesting sidelight is that 1980 was the last of the 440C, so 1980 was a special year because it gave us the only 440C blades with the BOS heat treat.
 
OklahomaBryan said:
DocT:

I agree that if you used the older Buck grind that the blade was harder to sharpen and did not cut as well as the new blades---BUT if one would go to the trouble of reprofiling the blade at 30 degrees and apply a 40 degree micro bevel, then they will cut as well as new blades in my opinion. Another benefit is they would hold better edge than new ones. Bryan
Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum. I appreciate your input. However, I was speaking why the older knives were harder to sharpen, and why they often held a better edge, apart from steel type. As for the cutting better, as you said, you had to reprofile the older ones, but the reason Buck went with Edge 2000 is they found that this factory edge cut better as it came from the factory.
 
Michael,

Your Worksharp is different from currently available models, when did you purchase it. It appears to be of much higher quality and adjustment than current ones.

300
 
Sorry if I confused someone.

If anyone has any info showing that the official BOS heat treating of all production knives at Buck DID NOT start in 1980, please post it.

Thanks.
 
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