Older Buck knives hold better edge?

David Martin said:
First off, Mr. Bos is a gentleman and a legend in his field. As he talked and told me many items I couldn't help think, ''ok, don't screw this up. Just shut up and listen.' Realize who your talking to.'' He is a Way better man than most people I know. So, knowledgeable and humble. Unlike sooo many I know. It made me feel like when I talked to Chuck Buck. Down to earth, no braggart or arrogant. This was my third time to talk to him and the most in depth. He began heat treating Frank Buck's custom knives in the 50's on in to the 60's And more of Buck's production blades.
HE starting doing ALL of Buck's heat treating in 1970, after a meeting with AL in 1969. Not in house. Later in about 1976 he helped Buck set up their heat treating. Then came on board (moved in with Buck) in 1978 . In that dept. he heat treated every steel and blades Buck manufactured. NOT the Camillus made knives as they did their own.
HE developed ALL the formulas for all the new steels they used from 1979 to 2010. More later. DM
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David Martin said:
Paul Bos heat treated all of Bucks models (he and those in that dept.) from the 2 liners all the way to 2010 knives. All the limitied runs of special steels from ATS-34, BG-42 (the Hertiage series), 5200 steel, S30V, the Ti series, D2, hatchets, M9's, 154cm, & CPM154. Buck Masters and normal production steels and early carbon steels. Maintaining the equipment, trouble shooting, maintaining it in calibration and holding strict tolerance of formulas. Thousands of blades daily. One out of every 30 blades were taken to the Rockwell hardness tester. On his custom blades every one was tested. He spent 50 years as a heat treater. For many of us,--- that's 2 careers. Receiving awards and honors. Buck and other cutlery firms have good quality control. Paul Farner trained under him for 12-14 years. Mr. Bos left this dept. in his good capable hands. Chuck Buck backed Paul's decisions 100%. A standing many of us wish we had today with our boss. When Chuck passed, part of Paul died too. They just had that type of relationship. A element Missing in today's work place. He was a everyday man who set the bar of excellence high at what he did. His name is noteworthy in the industry. DM
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Great information, David. Thanks for your time and effort. 300 Bucks, here's your sticky! :thumbup:


mnblade said:
When I was a kid, all of Buck's packaging and ads said "Famous For Holding An Edge." When/why did they get away from using this slogan?
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Good question.


For my own education and appreciation of Bos heat treat, what makes a Paul Bos heat treat better than say, Camillus? In other words, what is a Camillus heat treated blade lacking or how might it be inferior?
 
Glad we finally got the straight skinny from the horse's (BOS's) mouth.

Now you have your sticky for posterity, 300 Bucks!!!

Thanks to all involved.
 
mnblade said:
When I was a kid, all of Buck's packaging and ads said "Famous For Holding An Edge." When/why did they get away from using this slogan?
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The ad that sticks with me is the bolt-cutting one.

They gave up on that after getting too many returned for warranty work after people tried it.

:)

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From my experience with just sharpening the 110’s I own, it seems the order from longest to shortest edge hold is: 440c, 420hc, and then 425m. 420hc does seem to sharpen up a lot quicker with less effort.

My current method for sharpening is to swipe once on a WorkSharp and then fine tune on an arkansas stone. I then finish with a leather strop.
 
Paul Bos said the sales people would use the old style of blade where the blade was thicker right behind the edge then thin out again. The new blades are more convex the blade would chip if they tried to cut a nail. Paul said Chuck did not want to change away from the original grind so the sales people could keep using that example of how tough the knives were. They eventualy changed to what we have today. Something like Blade 2000 or something. There was some info not too long ago about that change.

VorpalRain said:
The ad that sticks with me is the bolt-cutting one.

They gave up on that after getting too many returned for warranty work after people tried it.

:)

3b3cd5239788c137d138955b4e334e11.jpg
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David thanks for your effort in getting the information from Mr Bos. It gives a better understanding of his relationship with Buck Knives. My main interest is in the regular production knives, not custom or limited edition knives. After reading your report, I have a couple of questions based on the following quotes.
1. “He began heat treating Frank Buck's custom knives in the 50's on in to the 60's And more of Buck's production blades.”
2. “HE starting doing ALL of Buck's heat treating in 1970, …”
3. “Then came on board (moved in with Buck) in 1978 . In that dept. he heat treated every steel and blades Buck manufactured NOT the Camillus made knives …”
4. “Paul Bos heat treated all of Bucks models (he and those in that dept.) from the 2 liners all the way to 2010 knives.”
Quote #3 makes it pretty clear that all Buck blades from 1978 on have the BOS treatment, but Quote #2 also says “…All of Buck’s heat treating in 1970,…” Does the 1970 date mean all knives or is it limited to certain models such as the 100 Series fixed blades?
Quote #4 says, “from the 2 liners all the way to 2010 knives.” Does that include 2-liners before 1970 and does it include models such as the 110 2-liners? Quote #1, “And more of Buck’s production blades.”, could include 2-liners before 1970.
Thanks again,
Bert
 
mnblade said:
When I was a kid, all of Buck's packaging and ads said "Famous For Holding An Edge." When/why did they get away from using this slogan?
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I'll let others talk about the history and why's but will make this observation...

IME, "holding an edge" is not the end-all, be-all of knife blade performance. It really depends on what I'm using the knife for.

If all I want to do is to cut rope all day, every day, then I'll probably end up with something like the Boye's Cobalt Dendric knife with super granular "steel" matrix that can saw its way through rope even when dull. They do great on cardboard too, according to a buddy of mine who swears by his.

I'm not a steel connoisseur, but I can tell a difference between some steels in a beer vs ale sort of way. I do like 440C for, yes, edge hold when doing things like cutting carpet or cardboard or hunting. But, for EDC, I prefer fine grained steel like Buck's 420HC, Sandvik 12C27 or good 1095. For EDC, I like the ability to have a very keen edge and to be able to get it back with a few swipes on my pocket stone.

From a business point of view, I know that Buck (and Schrade) moved to 420HC for less expensive, more automated fine-blanking production and I know some people equate lower price with less good. But for EDC, I honestly prefer these fine-grained steels and am more than happy to trade "edge hold" for things like toughness, keenness of edge and sharpening ease.
 
I have a 110 made of 440C, a 120 made of 425M and several made of 420HC. They all hold a decent edge, all are reasonable to sharpen. I would not be afraid to trust any in a critical situation.
 
[video=youtube;BuxBN_iATT0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuxBN_iATT0[/video]
 
Information on Paul Bos placed at the end of the locked Date Code sticky. 300Bucks
 
Well, 300........

If that sticky is locked, the answer to Bertl's question above will have to be added in as well.

If we get one.
 
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300Bucks said:
Information on Paul Bos placed at the end of the locked Date Code sticky. 300Bucks
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Perhaps you could add a link to this thread as the source of that information. Someone in the future might find the rest of this insightful since questions were asked and answered. Just a thought...
 
Very good answer to that.Keep in mind that Schrade and Camillus were making pocket knives for Buck up to 1986.There was nothing inferior about either company's heat treatment.Being that people like to propagandize the BOS Heat Treatment...I'd like to know the names of some of those Camillus employees who heat treated.The name Paul Bos didn't become known or mainstream or public on packaging until the very late 90's/early 2000's.Sort of surfaced around the same time as Edge 2000 and other steels with the BOS flame stamping...the introduction of heavy marketing from Buck.

On Buck's packaging I recall it simply being called 'Buck Steel' several decades ago. And commonly put on blister packs of Buck Knives 'high carbon stainless steel hardened to 58rc'.
 
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1) The 1970 date says 'all' knives-- it means all Buck's knives. That's the way Mr. Bos put it.
2) Mr. Bos heat treated some 2 line models before 1970.
3) Frank Buck's custom knives were of carbon steel, (late 50's-60's). As Mr. Bos did these, Buck brought other models. Special Editions and Custom models. Mr. Bos specifically mentioned the Kalinga and Akonua, models of Buck's pride and joy. So, some were regular production knives. No, list of these. DM
 
David,
With all due respect.No matter how much you deflect or dodge around the answer...it is what it is.Not everything under the Buck name means Paul Bos or Paul Farner was behind the heat treatment...there were other competent people in the American knife industry too.So do you think when someone buys a Buck knife made in china hardened to 58rc in a Chinese equivalent to 420HC there's some magical formula to this process that no one can achieve?Maybe the staff at Sanrenmu was trained by Paul Bos?...come on now.
 
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