Older Buck knives hold better edge?

This BOS treatment issue pops up every so often. I am not up on it as DM or others are. How about me asking someone to do a forum post on it. Read the past info and write a summary of them. Do it like a science research paper by placing numbers at the end of quotes and then at the end reference the number listing where the quote came from. Tell you what if someone will do this we will place it the Date symbol sticky for all to have without search. We can then tell folks to go read that sticky if they have heat treating questions. Was just thinking out loud.

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If a heat treatment summary is done, be sure to use the right name: Paul Bos not Paul Boss.

Bert
 
300Bucks said:
Michael,

Your Worksharp is different from currently available models, when did you purchase it. It appears to be of much higher quality and adjustment than current ones.

300
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Funny I was moving things around yesterday and noticed I still have the box and put it in the back of my mind and today I read your question 300 Bucks. I looked in the box and the packing list was in the box. I purchased the Ken Onion model 4/23/2015 from Darex LLC. I seem to remember that there were cheaper models but this is a Ken Onion Edition. I just checked Darex and they carry knife sharpeners but do not seem to have the Ken Onion so I looked at Amazon and they have the same one I have for $130 with the knife sharpening attachment. Other attachments are optional.
 
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Your model is much better than the one I have. I just use it with fine belts as a buffer and polisher. Never touch a blade with it. Yours looks great.
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VorpalRain said:
Sorry if I confused someone.

If anyone has any info showing that the official BOS heat treating of all production knives at Buck DID NOT start in 1980, please post it.

Thanks.
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I already did. If Mr. Bos noticed an error he would have said so in his post. AS stated in the other topics. He began working for Buck in a contractual manner in the 50's doing their heat treating. Then in the the mid to late 60's he was employed by Buck (in house). This employment continued until his retirement in 2010. Show your evidence that he began in 1980? DM
 
300Bucks said:
Your model is much better than the one I have. I just use it with fine belts as a buffer and polisher. Never touch a blade with it. Yours looks great.
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The Model I have is just GREAT does excellent edges on all knives, except the larger wider blades which take patiences. I have done my sisters serrated steak knives and just do one side and they are super sharp.
 
David Martin said:
I already did. If Mr. Bos noticed an error he would have said so in his post. AS stated in the other topics. He began working for Buck in a contractual manner in the 50's doing their heat treating. Then in the the mid to late 60's he was employed by Buck (in house). This employment continued until his retirement in 2010. Show your evidence that he began in 1980? DM
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You already did?

The Buck lore that 1980 was the year when the Bos treatment was officially applied to all (or almost all) Buck blades has been common belief here for many years.

None of your links attests otherwise (except for stating that he worked closely with Buck for many years, which we all already know)--and the fact that Bos has not showed up to disagree is not proof of anything. If he had showed up to settle the matter, that would be different.

My notes from many years ago consistently show 1980 as the year when the Bos treatment was officially applied to all (or almost all) Buck blades. He still ran his own shop, but he was responsible for the Buck heat treat from that point on. I wouldn't have made such notes out of imagination.

Before that it may well have been applied to some......he was certainly around, but I've seen no evidence of an application of his heat treat to all Buck blades.

So, what we have now is opinion.......and a difference of opinion.

That's ok......it's not unusual.

Others will chime in, I'm sure.

This guy seems to agree.

http://www.lionseek.com/knives/brand/buck/1980-buck-110-three-dot-user-e30c73

Another......I guess it's a popular selling point.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-3-D...es-Sheath-Papers-and-Box-/161879466784?_ul=AR
 
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ABOUT PAUL BOS

Paul Bos, widely recognized as America's foremost heat treat authority for knife blades, got an early start learning the importance of proper heat treat. He was a 9th grader, making a set of 16 cold chisels in metal shop. When he plunged them into water to cool them off, they shattered into 32 pieces. The instructor gave him an F, and it was then that Paul was determined to learn more about this amazing process. He found that the steel he used should have been oil-quenched, not water, even though he had followed the instructor's orders.
The heat treat expert he had sought out and who became Paul's mentor was a wonderful old blacksmith from Kansas City, who ran the heat treat system for Star Heat Treat and Fishing Supplies in San Diego. So, while he was still in high school, he went to work there. His main task was making fish hooks, but his mentor taught Paul all he knew about the proper heat treat process. That was it; Paul was hooked. As he says, "I fell in love with heat treat -and it's still what I love to do."

It didn't take long for Paul to put his new-found skills to work. One of his drag-racing friends was Frank Buck (Chuck Buck's brother, who died years ago), and Frank would bring custom blades to Paul for the needed heat treat. Paul then met Frank's dad, Al, and began doing more for Buck Knives.

In 1969, Paul bought Star Heat Treat and established Certified Metal Craft, and soon they were doing virtually all the heat treat done in San Diego County. By the time he left in 1980 it was the biggest heat treat service in Southern California, doing work for such big names as Boeing, Lockheed, Grumman and others.
At the same time, he was still working with Buck Knives. He found himself working 18 hours a day, seven days a week, and decided that was too much.

But his love of heat treat and Buck Knives was still very much alive. In the late '70s he helped Buck set up their own heat treat department, complete with the ovens and all the necessary equipment. So he and the Buck's worked out an arrangement where Paul would operate his own business right in the Buck plant - a win-win situation, where he was always on-site to serve Buck, while still doing heat treat for custom knife makers all over America. In 2001, Paul sold his business to Buck Knives, but remained the on-site heat treat expert.

In 2007 Bos was the recipient of the "Blade Magazine Industry Achievement Award" for the contributions and advances he made in heat treating technology. Furthermore, in 2010 he was inducted into the "Blade Magazine Cutlery Hall of Fame©" in recognition of nearly 50 years as the foremost authority on the heat treatment of steel for knife blades.

Paul Bos retired from Buck Knives in June, 2010. His retirement marked the end of an amazing era of accomplishment. Bos handed down the heat treat role to Paul Farner, after successfully teaching him the ins and outs of the business for over 10 years. Farner now runs the heat treat department, as well as serves the custom knife makers.

Although he has retired, Bos remains an intricate part of Buck's heat treat protocol. Bos is still accessible and maintains an in-depth role when new steels are introduced and tested.
 
https://www.buckknives.com/about-knives/heat-treating/ Yes, I found the same article. In it --- it sounds like Mr. Bos was doing all of Buck's heat treating in 1969. But was not stationed (housed) at the company until the late 70's. He was not only working for Buck 'THEN' but was also doing much custom heat treating for custom makers. Then sold his heat treating business to Buck in 2001 but remained on site. Who's paying him? I would think he's employed with Buck (at Buck) until his retirement in 2010. Then he went straight back to heat treating in his own business in Indiana. DM
 
So, from this article we can surmise. (the original question) Did Paul heat treat Buck's 425M steel. Yes. Was he in their plant doing so. Yes.
Now, did Paul also heat treat Bucks earlier knives? Yes. (very likely) Did he do so housed in Buck's plant? No. (As by this time he was respected by Buck and had a good standing with them and had already been heat treating for them.) I did not mean to miss lead in my post #3. DM
 
My circa-2015 110 and 1998 112 hold their edges as well if not better than my circa-1975 110 and 301. I love the 112 Ecolite and the 476 Diamondback, too. I don't have any negatives regarding today's Buck knives and am looking forward to getting my hands on a factory made 110 switchblade sometime this year.

Zieg
 
Thanks, Makael.

From this:

In 1969, Paul bought Star Heat Treat and established Certified Metal Craft, and soon they were doing virtually all the heat treat done in San Diego County. By the time he left in 1980 it was the biggest heat treat service in Southern California, doing work for such big names as Boeing, Lockheed, Grumman and others.
At the same time, he was still working with Buck Knives. He found himself working 18 hours a day, seven days a week, and decided that was too much.

But his love of heat treat and Buck Knives was still very much alive. In the late '70s he helped Buck set up their own heat treat department, complete with the ovens and all the necessary equipment. So he and the Buck's worked out an arrangement where Paul would operate his own business right in the Buck plant - a win-win situation, where he was always on-site to serve Buck, while still doing heat treat for custom knife makers all over America. In 2001, Paul sold his business to Buck Knives, but remained the on-site heat treat expert.
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We can verify that the big change did in fact take place in 1980 when he was established on site.

It would be nice to know how many and what lines of Buck blades he treated before 1980--we're really in the dark on that part of it......maybe he'll stop by and grace us with some memories.
 
Just sent him an email asking some questions. Well see what he responds with.
 
Makael, I do appreciate your use of your contacts to help shed light on this old, but still unresolved topic.

With all the history that's been written about Buck Knives.......it's odd that we're still asking such questions.

Thanks.
 
Well I just got off the phone with Paul Bos. He had just hung up with David Martin. Lol. I was driving and could not write anything down he was telling me. i am hoping that David did and will respond to this with his info.
Paul Bos is a great guy and was lucky he responded so quickly.
 
Well, Buck's old 440C did take a pretty good edge, but it took a lot of time and effort to hone that stuff on carborundum or soft Arkansas stones, which is all I had back then. I wore down the blade on my first 112 just from over-sharpening. Buck's 420HC out-performs 440C in CATRA tests, I read, something to do with carbides tearing out, and I much prefer 420HC these days, particularly with the current edge geometry -- it's much easier to sharpen, albeit on diamond hones. That said, I am highly impressed by my new Custom Shop 112 in S30V. It takes and holds a fantastic edge and has a 'bite' (maybe due to carbide size?) similar to D2.
 
First off, Mr. Bos is a gentleman and a legend in his field. As he talked and told me many items I couldn't help think, ''ok, don't screw this up. Just shut up and listen.' Realize who your talking to.'' He is a Way better man than most people I know. So, knowledgeable and humble. Unlike sooo many I know. It made me feel like when I talked to Chuck Buck. Down to earth, no braggart or arrogant. This was my third time to talk to him and the most in depth. He began heat treating Frank Buck's custom knives in the 50's on in to the 60's And more of Buck's production blades.
HE starting doing ALL of Buck's heat treating in 1970, after a meeting with AL in 1969. Not in house. Later in about 1976 he helped Buck set up their heat treating. Then came on board (moved in with Buck) in 1978 . In that dept. he heat treated every steel and blades Buck manufactured. NOT the Camillus made knives as they did their own.
HE developed ALL the formulas for all the new steels they used from 1979 to 2010. More later. DM
 
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When I was a kid, all of Buck's packaging and ads said "Famous For Holding An Edge." When/why did they get away from using this slogan?
 
Paul Bos heat treated all of Bucks models (he and those in that dept.) from the 2 liners all the way to 2010 knives. All the limitied runs of special steels from ATS-34, BG-42 (the Hertiage series), 5200 steel, S30V, the Ti series, D2, hatchets, M9's, 154cm, & CPM154. Buck Masters and normal production steels and early carbon steels. Maintaining the equipment, trouble shooting, maintaining it in calibration and holding strict tolerance of formulas. Thousands of blades daily. One out of every 30 blades were taken to the Rockwell hardness tester. On his custom blades every one was tested. He spent 50 years as a heat treater. For many of us,--- that's 2 careers. Receiving awards and honors. Buck and other cutlery firms have good quality control. Paul Farner trained under him for 12-14 years. Mr. Bos left this dept. in his good capable hands. Chuck Buck backed Paul's decisions 100%. A standing many of us wish we had today with our boss. When Chuck passed, part of Paul died too. They just had that type of relationship. A element Missing in today's work place. He was a everyday man who set the bar of excellence high at what he did. His name is noteworthy in the industry. DM
 
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