Older Spyders with newer blade steel?

J

JD Spydo

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Nov 20, 2004
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I just did this on another thread>> which was the fact that I asked why can't we take some of our favorite older Spyders and revamp them with newer blade steel or even handle materials if that would be an improvement.

With the newer generation of premium blade steels like ZDP-189, VG-10, M-4, S-30V ect it only makes sense to me to have a vote on which older Spyder models would vastly benefit with a newer blade steel. For instance just how awesome would a JD Smith be with ZDP-189 or a fixed blade Moran with the new Crucible M-4 be.

The possibilities are vast in number but I just know in my gut that there would be at least 4 to 6 of them that virtually every Spyderco collector would surely agree with as well as buy them up ( in advance if necessary). My main motivation is to have some Spyderco knives that I like the design of with upgraded premium blade steel for premium working knives. I would give a bunch to have a full sized Dyad in either VG-10 or M-4 for my main EDC. I would also just flip over a fixed blade Spyder made with ZDP-189. I work a lot with knives and the better the steel the better I enjoy working with them. I know I'm not alone with this line of thinking and some of you would have great ideas with possible handle material changes. 2 questions: Which ones would you like to see with which new blade steel? And would you want it for actual cutting work or to spice up an already good collection? Your thoughts please :)
 
I disagree. I'd rather see Spyderco continue to innovate with things like the D4 and P'kal than have a continual succession of sprints. It's just not good business, considering they don't always even do well(ref the BG-42 CF Military).

I don't necessarily buy designs based on steel. I tend to favor design aspects, locks, and country of manufacture first.

Also, given that the majority of Spyderco's customers are not steel snobs, this would probably be a poor allocation of resources.
 
J.D., as much as I like some of the older Spydies too, They were cut for whatever reasons.

From having sold knives in the past I agree we steel junkies are in the minority. Let them continue putting available resources in the newer, debugged and better knives.

One thing I will bet my paycheck on is that Sal knows the business like very few others have. In Sal we trust.
He is doing more for us steel junkies than anyone ever has before, or ever will again. Give him feedback, support and enjoy the ride. Everything is getting betterIMO. Joe
 
OK guys hold on just a minute :) Now just sit and think for a minute at what happened to the Calypso Jr model when they revamped it with ZDP-189 steel. It literally gave total "rebirth" to that model. Also look at all of the newly rekindled interest in the Military model when they offered it with a Peel Ply Carbon Fiber handle and BG-42 & S-30V blade steels.

Also guys look at how the Harpy did when they re-issued it with a CArbon Fiber handle. This can be successful if done right with some forethought. Now I'm not saying to do it to every older model. I think there has to be a few that a lot of people like or ones like the JD Smith whose popularity rose exponentially when it was discontinued.

I may not have communicated my idea very well but I think you all at least get the jest of it. With the prices that some of these discontinued models are getting on Ebay it is going to be hard to convince me otherwise than some of these older models revamped with newer steel and/or handle materials would be a great idea if done with some forethought. I don't expect all of you to agree with me and I don't take it personally when you don't >> but just make sure you completely understand where I am coming from. thanks for the feedback so far guys :)
 
I'm neutral on this issue.

I'm not against seeing older Spyders with upgraded steels, nor would I be the first in line(or even in line at all for some of them).

That being said. The Caly Jr was an interesting experiment. A sprint of new steel DID revive a dead knife, and it appears to have revived it enough to be completely reborn in the Caly 3. With the RIGHT model and the RIGHT steel it could be very lucrative for Spyderco.

The BG-42 CF Military was bad timing in my opinion. It was right on the heels of the S30V CF Military, and BG-42, while having a strong fan base, isn't exactly new and exciting like ZDP-189(which itself is no longer new and exciting, hence the CF Caly 3 still being in stock pretty much everywhere).

IF it happens, it would need to be a model with a loyal following among collectors(i.e. Caly Jr) and it would have to be a model that's still a good knife. I won't name particular knives(because I'll likely get stoned), but some of the older collaboration Spyders everyone raves about have no ergos at all. They're not comfortable to use, and that's just not worth bringing back.

And to top it off, the sprint would need to be reasonably priced. Everyone wants CF and the latest steel until they realize what it costs, than they change their mind(see above about CF Caly 3 still being in stock pretty much everywhere)

In all honesty, I don't see anything among the older Spyders that has enough appeal to warrant an upgraded steel, save for the Lum Chinese(I don't understand the draw, but it has a fanatic following) which is already being done.
 
JD Spydo said:
OK guys hold on just a minute :) Now just sit and think for a minute at what happened to the Calypso Jr model when they revamped it with ZDP-189 steel. It literally gave total "rebirth" to that model. Also look at all of the newly rekindled interest in the Military model when they offered it with a Peel Ply Carbon Fiber handle and BG-42 & S-30V blade steels.

Also guys look at how the Harpy did when they re-issued it with a CArbon Fiber handle. This can be successful if done right with some forethought. Now I'm not saying to do it to every older model. I think there has to be a few that a lot of people like or ones like the JD Smith whose popularity rose exponentially when it was discontinued.

I may not have communicated my idea very well but I think you all at least get the jest of it. With the prices that some of these discontinued models are getting on Ebay it is going to be hard to convince me otherwise than some of these older models revamped with newer steel and/or handle materials would be a great idea if done with some forethought. I don't expect all of you to agree with me and I don't take it personally when you don't >> but just make sure you completely understand where I am coming from. thanks for the feedback so far guys :)
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I will say that your examples in this post of the Caly Jr., Harpy, and Military sprint runs that have been done recently are a little flawed. The Harpy and Military are proven designs that are "classics" of the Spyderco line. They have been on the market for a long time and are still in production. The Caly Jr. is another one while not always a proven seller keeps coming back at us for one reason or another. Take a look at the Jess Horn ZDP sprint run. I was able to find those still in stock at dealers long long after they were shipped.

Personally, the idea I like best for steels is something I read on one of the Spyderco forums a few months ago. Sal had mentioned that if the Caly III was well received enough that they would tool up for an FRN version that could be used in small runs to test new steels at a decent price. I think that is the best platform to get new steels out to those who want then in a hard working package.
 
Again my whole thrust and purpose of this thread is to recognize some of the discontinued Spyders that I think would highly profit from upgraded materials. I have personally talked to at least 10 fellow knife collectors/users who fervently agree with me that the fixed blade Spyderco Lum model would have been a great keeper/user model with a better steel like VG-10.

Again I want to also say that I think only about 5 to maybe 7 of the discontinued models would really significantly benefit from these proposed upgrades in blade steel and handle materials. I just know in my gut that there are many Spyderco fans who have had a model that they like where they have said to themselves " That knife would be great with a ZDP-189 blade" or " man if this knife had a Peel Ply Carbon Fiber handle it would be absolutely perfect">> I rest my case
 
JD Spydo said:
Again I want to also say that I think only about 5 to maybe 7 of the discontinued models would really significantly benefit from these proposed upgrades in blade steel and handle materials.
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Do you think the models that never got a steel upgrade during their regular run would potentially be the best candidates for this? For example, the Lum tanto was only made in AUS-8, so bringing it back in a new steel (such as VG-10) would appeal to both collectors and users. The Dyad would also fall into this category...and the Dyad also would offer the ability to have multiple blade steels (such as a ZDP-189 plain blade and H1 serrated blade).

The BG-42 Military has been mentioned as a sprint run that sold poorly; perhaps it is because the Military has had several steel upgrades throughout its run, thus making it less "exciting" in a new steel?
 
My view is that while it's true, quite a few knives would benefit from a steel upgrade, the main issues with giving older Spydies said steels are:

1) The older Spydies were discontinued for a reason, they didn't sell too well. The Caly Jr is a good example of resurrecting a model, but to the average person, most of the knives either look funny so they won't buy them, or looks similar to this model, which is cheaper, so they buy the other one.

At the risk of getting stoned, as Scott put it, I'd say the Shabaria and the Jot Singh Khalsa into the former category, and at the severe risk of getting stoned, I doubt the average person will see much difference between the Blackhawk and the Native, other than the top swedge, and doubt even more that they'd factor said differences into their decision.

2) Having a CF handle or ZDP-189, M-4 &c would make a knife perfect for one person (heck, a Ti Lil Temp in ZDP would be pretty near perfect for me!), but again, the average person probably won't care. Will it cut? Yes. Ok, that's all I need to know. Granted, there'll be people who know more about their needs (those who need knives that won't rust, for example), but after a certain point, they don't understand what they're getting when they're paying that extra $20 or so, so they just go for the cheaper option.

Titanium handles, for example. I think that at the price difference between a Ti and SS ATR, for example, quite a few of us will already be going "Do I really need the Ti handles?". Of course, I know the advantages, but they just cost so much that it gets hard for me (a knife person) to rationalise it.

I would like to see some of the older models come back, since I missed them the first time around, but unfortunately I don't see it as being a good business decision for Spyderco.
 
It could work out.

Spyderco could do it in the form of the well-known sprint run, just 600 pieces to satisfy the collector at first, who at this moment has to pay premium prices on E-Bay for the old ones, which is of no benefit to Spyderco at all.

Second to test it on the general public now that Spyderco is much more a wellknown name now than it was 10 to 15 years ago.

The recognition the older models nowadays get on auction sites like E-Bay is proof that there is demand for them.

Reproduction can also be much cheaper for Spyderco because the design is already there.
 
smcfalls13 said:
The BG-42 CF Military was bad timing in my opinion. It was right on the heels of the S30V CF Military, and BG-42, while having a strong fan base, isn't exactly new and exciting like ZDP-189(which itself is no longer new and exciting, hence the CF Caly 3 still being in stock pretty much everywhere).

IF it happens, it would need to be a model with a loyal following among collectors(i.e. Caly Jr) and it would have to be a model that's still a good knife. I won't name particular knives(because I'll likely get stoned), but some of the older collaboration Spyders everyone raves about have no ergos at all. They're not comfortable to use, and that's just not worth bringing back.
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Apart from (IMO) not happily chosen almost simultaneous release of both (S30V and BG-42) versions which competed with each other and reduced "rarity" of each other then IMO only reason why CF Military didn't (doesn't) sell well was it's price. Not in means it was/is overpriced but it simply touched the area where most production knives' manufacturers do not operate (there are some, e.g. Klotzli, CRK, William and Henry, Strider, Busse, Emerson but as far as I can tell they all have created their niche with their (can I say loyal?) customers buying specific brand).


However almost all manufacturers wandering to this "beyond frontier" zone of almost $200 (and more) experienced similar e.g. Boker, Benchmade etc.
Not many are willing to try it again.

In all honesty, it is lot of money (atleast for me :) but I like my BG-42 CF Military a lot). And that brings me to second part of my post concerning sales of CF Caly3.

Again it is expensive, this is not criticism only ascertainment, and that sets up some expectations. E.g. pinned construction - it doesn't have to be bad but in expensive things people want "better" option of the two (screws).
(you can see similarity in car manufacturing industry: for years Mazda MX-5 was fine with rag top but now it has metal one. It can have it's own cons but people want it that way. Here is the question: given the choice between rag top and metal (folding) roof in the very same car, which one would you want?)

And then there is laminated blade. I read Sal's explanation why it was used but anyway: I doubt there are people that WOULDN'T buy a knife because it doesn't have laminated blade. However, put vice versa, these people exist (and I'm one of them).



But I think Spyderco found interesting niche: "super steel" and rare handle materials in production knives (and for reasonable money) currrently can be seen only from Spyderco and Kershaw. I say go on. :thumbup:
 
Th232 said:
2) Having a CF handle or ZDP-189, M-4 &c would make a knife perfect for one person (heck, a Ti Lil Temp in ZDP would be pretty near perfect for me!), but again, the average person probably won't care. Will it cut? Yes. Ok, that's all I need to know. Granted, there'll be people who know more about their needs (those who need knives that won't rust, for example), but after a certain point, they don't understand what they're getting when they're paying that extra $20 or so, so they just go for the cheaper option.
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:eek:
I would LOVE to see that average person even expressing interest in knife that costs more than $100 (= ordinary Manix, (Para)Military etc.). Even Byrds are often considered expensive by these people. That "average person" is simply not even potential customer IMO.

I'd be curious how many people have bought something like CF Military or ZDP Leek as their first knife ((or as a first quality knife) :confused:
 
I would be more interested in mid-priced remakes instead of the higher end stuff you guys are talking about.

I don't have a model in particular in mind since all the ones I like are still being made (E4, native, etc) However I think that if the remakes are vg-10 frn would sell a lot better than CF ZDP combos. I don't really NEED another knife, but wouldn't mind dropping a few bucks for it, but a few hundred would be different story.
 
huugh said:
:eek:
I would LOVE to see that average person even expressing interest in knife that costs more than $100 (= ordinary Manix, (Para)Military etc.). Even Byrds are often considered expensive by these people. That "average person" is simply not even potential customer IMO.
I'd be curious how many people have bought something like CF Military or ZDP Leek as their first knife ((or as a first quality knife) :confused:
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Who do you think keeps Spyderco in business? That "average" person is buying Delicas and Enduras.

The "average" person is what pays the bills, we collectors and knife knuts are a small minority.
 
The first runs of ZDP Calypso Jrs. and Delicas sold like hotcakes because they attracted the attention of three distinict "affi" groups. The "steel junkies" wanted them because they were ZDP and cheap enough to actually use. The "wheeler-dealers" wanted them because they hoped to turn a quick profit. The "set collectors" wanted them because they were one more variant of a knife which they had all (or at least a sizable percentage) of the variants.

I would bet few, if any, steel junkies would be interested in a high priced knife in a steel they've already had a chance to play with. I suspect that many of the speculators are still licking their wounds from the nose-dive prices on the first runs of Caly Jrs, and Delicas took when the later, larger runs were released. They might be reluctant to roll the dice again, especially after seeing the prices S30V/CF Militaries have been bringing and the sluggish sales of the BG42/CF version.

That leaves just the die-hard collectors, and even some of them may be starting to get bored by the idea of yet another ZDP/CF Sprint Run, unless the model was one they genuinely loved and that combination of materials something that actually excited them.

The things that would get my juices flowing probably might not appeal to very many others. A full tang, double bolstered, stag scaled Moran Drop Point in VG-10 would really excite me, hell, even AUS-6 would suffice. ATS-34 would be the ideal, in my opinion a classic design deserves a classic steel. Heck it might even sell, simply because it would be something Spyderco had never done before.
 
All discontinued knives would be better with material upgrades. That doesn't mean they would sell well.

What collectors pay on eBay for fifteen year old discontinued Spyders in mint condition is no indication of what anyone would pay for a new version of the same knife, regardless of the materials used. It doesn't even indicate interest in the model as a knife per se, only as a collectible object. For all the use most of those old knives will see, the blades could be made of T6 Aluminum and they would never get dull.

Sure, I'd love a chance to pick up some of the old models to use, and upgraded materials would be even better. If I had a few hundred thousand dollars I didn't know what to do with, I'd ask Sal about making a few sprints of old models just for me :D .

Until I win the Powerball, I'll settle for whatever comes along.
 
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