On Everest it has come down to survival of the lowest.

I can't even imagine not trying to help someone that's in a bad way, that would go against my upbringing and everything I believe in. By the same token, I can't pass judgement on the actions of folks facing a situation I've never faced myself. What would you do if a ten year old boy was drawing a bead on you with an AK? The typical offhand answer is "I'd smoke his a$$". Really? It's not so cut and dried and simple as all that, it never is.

Sarge
 
And for the record, 40 other people made the same assessment in the same situation with the same factors and made the same choice. The basecamp they radioed advised the same action. Theres a better chance that 40 expert climbers were right than that 100% of the people summiting that day were heartless, cold, horrible people. I dont know how any of us can think our moral compasses are so correct so as to assume that any decisions made by experts wo were actually there are null and void just because our movie-like idea of the situation bothers us down deep.
 
TikTock said:
No matter what anyone says, people keep repeating the same blind statment of "i cant believe they walked past him, why didnt they help"

Go and read any of the now hundreds of articles on this story. Most now account that the guy was in varying stages of death that day, and the group that stopped said he could not stand or move any of his limbs and could just move his eyes at that point.

The point about them not taking any more risk than the boat racers is not even comparable. Those boat racers were not in an environment where 3-5 minutes of exposure would cause instant death.

This guy was 1,000 feet shy of the summit, basically immobile and half frozen solid. The group has now stated again and again that the decision was to press onward because to stop for any extended period would have severly risked the lives of the entire group.

While i feel the same human compassion, i dont think its nearly as simple as throwing a huge blanketed moral compass on their decision. I think at this point its an agree to disagree situation. many here are presenting the situation in such a way that they lead me to belive they would lower their families into a flaming volcano to save a guy who was burned beyond hope already....i think people need to take a cold, hard look at the situation and put yourself in a leadership position. If you had a group of people whom you were responsible for, would you risk every single one of their lives, knowing that there was a measurable and almost certain chance one or more would die, only to give an already dying man a few more moments of peace (if you can even say he was congant enough to recieve it?)? Would you be able to sleep easier knowing you effectively caused the deaths of ten to try to save one who you beleived beyond saving? If you say that you'd be willing to make that sacrifice, you should never be a leader of men....these are cold, hard, survival choices made on the spot under extremes we can only slightly begin to imagine, and it bothers me that the people who have to live with that cold hard reality are being attacked by hoardes of people caliming they should have done more, but have no solutions and no answers as to what more they could have done other than joined him in his fate.

Call me cold, or uncompassionate, but i would have stopped, asessed the situation, and most likely kept walking. There is a point where being a hero is being foolish, and risking many lives to save one just does not weigh out. Sometimes compassion is making hard choices. People die on that mountain 20 feet from their tent, unable to make it that last 20 feet. Most cannot even drag their own weight down, and most deaths are on the descent, as mr sharp's was. Gear is at a minimum to make the best attempt, and i find it hard to beleive that anyone here would have accepted nearly certain death to drag what they saw as a lost cause down a decent that they were already risking their lives to attempt alone....maybe some here would make that choice. History has proven again and again about those types of people. Some are heroes, pulling off the impossible due to combinations of scenarios and luck. Most who made that choice would be no more than a lump in the snow right now from every expert account I have read.

The question is would you personally, when all is said and done, rather:

One dead frozen man and 40 men who had better chances at living?
One chance at saving that one man, with the risk that a great many would have a high percentage of also dying and even if he were saved, had little chance to survive?
A few martyrs to die with him, just to prove that humans are compassionate?

Ive seen a lot of questions but not a lot of answers. Those climbers made choices and they all lived. What would you have done differently and how do you envision those different scenareios to have worked out? lets try to keep to the environment, though. So no stopping for longer than 5 minutes, no magic vending machines, no magic sources of extra oxygen, no skiing down ice cliffs, no unassisted rope work, no bursts of energy where exceptional things happen....reality. What is the reality of the alternatives, and how would YOU justify those alternatives to the widows of the men you might commit to death, to yourself?

None of which changes the fact that injured people have been help down that mountain in the past, and by far smaller groups. Others have been reportedly short roped up most of the final pitch; just so they can say they have been there. What would it have taken to wrap this guy in something and lower him down the mountain? That section of the Everest climb is supposed to be brutal and grueling; but, it is a relatively straight forward climb with few technical challenges. He may, or may not, have made it back alive; but, at least you would have recovered the body, and concealed the evidence of Man's inhumanity and stupidity.

n2s
 
TikTock said:
And for the record...
Oh cripes. We can each cite our own "for the record" stuff. You give me the Base Camp, I'll respond with Hillary, and on it will go.

Not sure that we really have to polarize into the "heartless animal" or "movie-struck loony" camps, eh? Let's find another way out.

t.
 
not2sharp said:
None of which changes the fact that injured people have been help down that mountain in the past, and by far smaller groups. Others have been reportedly short roped up most of the final pitch; just so they can say they have been there. What would it have taken to wrap this guy in something and lower him down the mountain? That section of the Everest climb is supposed to be brutal and grueling; but, it is a relatively straight forward climb with few technical challenges. He may, or may not, have made it back alive; but, at least you would have recovered the body, and concealed the evidence of Man's inhumanity and stupidity.
n2s

If it were that simple a climb, he probably wouldnt be dead and those choices wouldnt have been made. Heres a quote from the sherpa who gave him O2:

"Dawa from Arun Treks also gave oxygen to David and tried to help him move, repeatedly. But he could not get David to stand alone or even stand resting on his shoulders, and crying, Dawa had to leave him too. Even with two Sherpas it was not going to be possible to get David down the tricky sections below."

From the other 40:
"they had come across a near-dead climber with severe frostbite of his face and all 4 limbs. He had been at 8500m for at least 24 hours and all he said was that he wanted to sleep."
 
TomFetter said:
Oh cripes. We can each cite our own "for the record" stuff. You give me the Base Camp, I'll respond with Hillary, and on it will go.

Not sure that we really have to polarize into the "heartless animal" or "movie-struck loony" camps, eh? Let's find another way out.

t.

True. I am just trying to play the devil's advocate here. Of course it would be alot easier to just say those rich snob hikers left him to die and should be ashamed, then go back to drinking my beer...

I dont mean to ruffle feathers here...I can stop posting if its coming off all wrong, but i just have seen all these horrified, disgusted people posting, and no one has really had any sort of answer as to the alternative other than to risk everything for this guy. Maybe I just cant accept that all these people horrified would indeed make that decision to risk it all when so many so much more experienced did not make that decision. it seems everyone ON the mountain that day agreed that is shouldnt be done, while everyone off the mountain has a different view of what it must have been like.

My apoligies for thread hogging or making assumptions or being a jerk...i just get fired up about situations like this and tend to side with those that had to make horrible, tough choices and then take flak for it as if they signed up for it.
 
TikTock said:
... Maybe I just cant accept that all these people horrified would indeed make that decision to risk it all when so many so much more experienced did not make that decision...
Well, at the risk of sounding even more flippant, the HI cantina does include some folks whose orientations, and experiences, are outside the norm. There are some here, for e.g., who have confronted mortality, and occasionally chosen what some might call an irrational path. It's part of what makes the Cantina interesting.

... as to holding assumptions, or occasionally "being a jerk" ... we can all look in the mirror, somedays!
 
Agreed. Different cross sections would no doubt react differently. I am most shocked by the flatness of the disgust for humankind as a result, though...I wouldnt have reacted as strongly as I did if it didnt seem like many responding had a bone to pick with humanity to begin with.

I would like to beleive that I have the compassion to give those poor hikers the respect enough to live with their own decisions without me telling them how they should feel about themseves, me having not been there.
 
I'd imagine that the other climbers will be reflecting on that few hours of their lives for some time to come.

Serious climbing being the kind of sport that it is, they might easily bump into a parallel situation some time in the future. It would be fascinating to know how these few hours on Everest would colour the choices they'd make then.

Be well,

t.
 
Here's what I don't understand:

They have the resources to CONTINUE ascending to the summit, and then descent to the base...

But they can't reverse course when they find a dying man and use the additional resouces that were for the rest of the ascent to TRY to save a man's life while descending?

I think that kind of makes me want to be sick. And yes, I read the parts about how he just could not have been saved, no matter what.. etc. (all opinion of course) But you finish your climb anyway.. really? Really?! I guess if I find a dying man and can't manage to save him I lose interest in meaningless bragging rights about reaching some goal.
 
You know, if he was a goner, and no one could save him, and everybody knew it, including him, perhaps someone could have put a bullet through his skull to get it over with, instead of dying slowly in the cold.




munk
 
Hi TikTock-

We're reading from the same sheet of music and I'm in agreement with you.

From the extensive reading I've done it seems that David Sharp was essentially dead and just didn't know it yet. Similar to the way someone with horrible third-degree burns can hold a conversation and even be lucid...but with ZERO chance of survival. Heck, the nice thing to do might have been to give him a pillow so he could peacefully close his eyes and shed this mortal coil.

We see famous climbers like Sir Edmund Hillary getting all puffy and angered...when I'm inclined to believe he would have walked past his own mother as he approached that summit in 1953. He now sits in knighted comfort casting judgement against people pushing the limits of human capability on a perilous and icy mountaintop many miles away.

~ Blue Jays ~
 
Hi munk-

Interesting notion but I doubt anyone carries firearms in that situation. They're quite heavy and there is very little chance of encountering predatory animals or predatory criminals, for that matter. One would rather dedicate that weight to other gear.

If we want to stray into surrealism and wild sci-fi scenarios, one could wonder if a cyanide tablet in a sealed titanium canister hanging around one's neck would be a horrible option in that situation. Wow, just gave myself the creeps.

~ Blue Jays ~
 
Blue Jays said:
Hi TikTock-

We see famous climbers like Sir Edmund Hillary getting all puffy and angered...when I'm inclined to believe he would have walked past his own mother as he approached that summit in 1953. He now sits in knighted comfort casting judgement against people pushing the limits of human capability on a perilous and icy mountaintop many miles away.

~ Blue Jays ~

Id like to know if Hillary said "yes, those mean were right to save themsevles and their team mates rather than risk their lives for someone who could not be saved", would we even be having this discussion, or would everyone just accept his views just as in this instance? Just because he was the first to climb the mountain doesnt really give his voice any more weight than the 40 who also climbed the mountain on the 23rd who all thought it was safer to keep moving.
 
Blue Jays said:
... Heck, the nice thing to do might have been to give him a pillow so he could peacefully close his eyes and shed this mortal coil.
Maybe so. A pillow or, as Munk said, a bullet. Most of us would treat our pets better.
We see famous climbers like Sir Edmund Hillary getting all puffy and angered...when I'm inclined to believe he would have walked past his own mother as he approached that summit in 1953. He now sits in knighted comfort casting judgement against people pushing the limits of human capability on a perilous and icy mountaintop many miles away.

~ Blue Jays ~
Blue Jays, those are pretty harsh words about a man neither of us know. I'd imagine that he's among the people who have earned a right to speak on this subject.

Over the years, I've had a few times when I've had a pretty close acquaintanceship with human death; I'm under few illusions about it. Some of the others who have spoken about compassion have had a closer acquaintanceship yet. Though their viewpoints don't wash with yours, they're hard won, and reflect life experience.

It is perfectly fine that you disagree; it's probably "rational." But I will push back if you treat folks who would try to put compassion first as loonies indulging in some namby-pamby do-gooder crap.

Tom.
 
Hi TomFetter-

Sir Edmund Hillary is an incredible man who has made outstanding achievements in the course of his life. My concern is that he appears to be "looking down his nose" at those people who made the agonizing decision to leave the unfortunate David Sharp on that mountain. Sir Edmund Hillary has been on that peak before...but he wasn't there that particular day.

I'm typically comfortable with honorable people making "boots on the ground" decisions as needed.

~ Blue Jays ~
 
I had a situation where i was winter hiking with someone I did not know. We hit the ridge and it was far worse than I expected. He was inexperienced and wanted to go on and refused to turn back. We argued for a bit, and in the end, I turned back down the mountain and watched him disappear into a whiteout, assuming it was the last time anyone would see him given the conditions. Is this any different? Sharp made the choice to skimp on equipment, carry less o2 than normal, and to hike alone......the guy i hiked with chose to go off into the snow having no clue how bad that 3 mile ridge walk would get....was it my responsibility to risk my life in the event he got in trouble? What if he got stuck, would I have felt guilty for not accompanying him? Things you have to live with...but at least you LIVE with them.
 
Well said, Blue Jays ... though as you'd suspect, I'd still quibble around the edges.

The key, as you note, is being honourable. We make ourselves so.

I'm done with this.

t.
 
A couple of points that we should just put on the table.

1) These 40 climbers didn't just march past this guy enmass. they represent a number of teams which had climbers on a summit assault that day. They likely enountered him a number of times, at various stages, well before he was at deaths door. Early reports had him in trouble but walking down to camp 4.

2) If he was, as reported, about 1000' below the summit, then those making the summit would have continued on for hours to reach the summit and then return. The average summit assault from camp 4 takes about 8-16 hours, and it sounds like he was below the Hillary step. They would have encountered him around 2/3 of the way up; and, below the rock climb. If the 40 climbers would have stopped and turned back, whether all at once or as they reached him, they would have been able to spare him well over 100 hours of oxygen.

How could the conditions be rough enough to prevent you from staying there for a few minutes, yet not rough enough to continue on a further 5-10 hours of climbing into even harsher conditions?

n2s

Summary of everest climb:
http://www.mounteverest.net/expguide/route.htm
 
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