On Scammers and Avoiding Being Scammed

hhmoore

hhmoore

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(Posts moved by staff from another thread to keep it from being overwhelmed by commentary...)

And, of course, neither the seller nor prospective buyer took note of the profile message warning.
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jazub jazub So you noticed it, and your message to him still instructed him to post his email on his profile. Why set him up, knowing the risk?

Would you have made the decision not to sell to him (for the reasons stated above) of you hadn't gotten an offer from a paid member? You don't have to answer that here - introspection is sufficient.
 
Blues said:
Those are decisions to be made by the site owner...@jazub , and beyond my ability to control. We have had discussions about these issues, and he is fully aware...but ultimately, the decision rests with @Spark .
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And didn't he decide no, he was not going to restrict the exchange to paying members.
And I am not disagreeing with his decision.
That said I have deternined to do it on my own, in my ads. I state my doing so is for the buyers protection(so they can PM), along with PP G&S. Others can do as they want, but I have chosen not to have any of my buyers face a loss, by this scam.
$10 here or there is not going to kill a deal with me, so it wouldn't be hard for a serious buyer to get me to pay for the membership, if needed.
 
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hhmoore hhmoore I have received multiple inquiries on sales and declined those offers just in the last week because they were not paying members. Something feels different selling here than I remember from my last 14 years of membership and I did not have this experience under my belt before today.
The way I read your message, the connotation seems to be that my actions were at fault in some way. I can't imagine why you, a passive observer, would try to find fault on my behalf here. I got a message of interest late at night laying in bed and responded I would get back to him in the morning. When I woke up, I proceeded as outlined above, seeing his messages in my thread and on his own page. It didn't feel right so I passed.
I don't claim to be perfect or infallible by any means but I did absolutely nothing with malice in this situation and consider my correspondence respecful and polite.
 
You would think that forking over a small amount of money to have a membership with the ability to communicate in private would be worth the grief that’s being seen as of late. If people are willing to put their personal information on a publicly seen site, and not pay heed to the warnings posted all over this site, then they really don’t have any right to bitch and moan about getting scammed. Some of these threads I’ve read about folks getting scammed out of are substantially way more than a basic membership or even a gold.
I just don’t know of any other way to communicate with a non paying member that wants to buy something other than a PM .
 
What about having a second Exchange for paying members only? To be clear, paying members could utilize both Exchanges, but free members could only access the Basic Exchange.

You could call it the Member's Exchange, and come up with some sort of mechanism that would allow Basic members to view posts, but not respond or otherwise engage in commerce within the Member's Exchange. I'd bet this would encourage a whole lot more Basic members to pony up. I'd also bet that paying members would have much less exposure to scammy situations in an exclusive Exchange.

The Member's Exchange could also enforce rules that most of us would see as desirable, such as the prohibition of PPFF, etc..

I might wind up getting involved in a Member's Exchange. Just a thought.
 
It's rather interesting that all of a sudden all these scammers are coming out of nowhere, and so many people are pushing "become a paying member and use PM's" as the 'solution'. Very few (though some) have pointed out that this is no guarantee that 1 will not get ripped off. And now, we got this idea to block access to the sales forums for non-paying members. I for one am tired of all this.

What's to stop scammers from becoming paying members, and continuing to scam members? Think about it, what scammer wouldn't consider $10 a small loss, particularly if he or she managed to scam someone out of $100? Or $200? Or $500? Or more?

I have an idea, it won't be popular of course. How about banning members who use or continue to use Paypal F&F? Or posting something below their username such as "Easy money here". No disrespect intended toward Spark, any of the Mods, or other BF members, but what does it take for people to get it through their heads that using Paypal F&F to send money to people you don't know is just plain stupid? Why should I, or other honest non-paying members, be punished because people are too stupid to stop using Paypal F&F? (except with people they actually know.)

Another thing. If you get an e-mail supposedly from a member, particularly one you don't know, why don't you log in and attempt to contact that member? Post on their wall, or post in the thread? BEFORE sending any money.

One more thing, as of this writing, I don't know if my email address is on the forum somewhere, but mysteriously, I haven't received any emails from people wanting money. Maybe I'm lucky, or maybe it's because I don't use Paypal at any time on the forum, only with known, established trusted companies that use it for payment. And I don't EVER use F&F.

Spark can do what he wants here, and he has strongly recommended NOT using Paypal F&F. Is it because he wants to be a dictator? NO! It's because he doesn't want to see members lose money or knives etc. As far as I am concerned, anyone who uses F&F on this forum (other than with people they actually personally know) is just saying "Easy money here", and should stop complaining when they get ripped off. They knew it could happen and let it happen.
 
nighthawk86 said:
It's rather interesting that all of a sudden all these scammers are coming out of nowhere, and so many people are pushing "become a paying member and use PM's" as the 'solution'. Very few (though some) have pointed out that this is no guarantee that 1 will not get ripped off. And now, we got this idea to block access to the sales forums for non-paying members. I for one am tired of all this.

What's to stop scammers from becoming paying members, and continuing to scam members? Think about it, what scammer wouldn't consider $10 a small loss, particularly if he or she managed to scam someone out of $100? Or $200? Or $500? Or more?

I have an idea, it won't be popular of course. How about banning members who use or continue to use Paypal F&F? Or posting something below their username such as "Easy money here". No disrespect intended toward Spark, any of the Mods, or other BF members, but what does it take for people to get it through their heads that using Paypal F&F to send money to people you don't know is just plain stupid? Why should I, or other honest non-paying members, be punished because people are too stupid to stop using Paypal F&F? (except with people they actually know.)

Another thing. If you get an e-mail supposedly from a member, particularly one you don't know, why don't you log in and attempt to contact that member? Post on their wall, or post in the thread? BEFORE sending any money.

One more thing, as of this writing, I don't know if my email address is on the forum somewhere, but mysteriously, I haven't received any emails from people wanting money. Maybe I'm lucky, or maybe it's because I don't use Paypal at any time on the forum, only with known, established trusted companies that use it for payment. And I don't EVER use F&F.

Spark can do what he wants here, and he has strongly recommended NOT using Paypal F&F. Is it because he wants to be a dictator? NO! It's because he doesn't want to see members lose money or knives etc. As far as I am concerned, anyone who uses F&F on this forum (other than with people they actually personally know) is just saying "Easy money here", and should stop complaining when they get ripped off. They knew it could happen and let it happen.
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Scammers are not coming out of nowhere as they've always been on here, phishing for emails has become more prevalent that's for sure. Plenty of scammers have stolen money on here even before this email trend has started, some people even did their due diligence and vetted and still were scammed so sadly it happens and nothing is fullproof.

Most of the people getting scammed lately don't read the header that you shouldn't be using F&F it's also the same with the current attachment issues in the tech subforum so to put it bluntly PEOPLE DON'T READ.

 
^^
By being a paid member a scammer would not be able to hijack a payment from a for sales thread. The user names would not match, and they would be easy to identify.
If anyone other than the seller knows you are the buyer. I do the whole transaction by PM, and only post in the tread if the seller asks me to
There are of course other scams, but G&S take care of most.
 
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RoyalHolic said:
Scammers are not coming out of nowhere as they've always been on here, phishing for emails has become more prevalent that's for sure. Plenty of scammers have stolen money on here even before this email trend has started, some people even did their due diligence and vetted and still were scammed so sadly it happens and nothing is fullproof.

Most of the people getting scammed lately don't read the header that you shouldn't be using F&F it's also the same with the current attachment issues in the tech subforum so to put it bluntly PEOPLE DON'T READ.
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Perhaps I should have said "Recently". I'm well aware there have been scams here for years, it just seems that there have been a lot in a very short span of time, Recently.

I agree that there is no foolproof way to avoid all scams. And you make a good point about people not reading the header, however when several threads in just the last month or so have been devoted to scammers, it would be reasonable to conclude that maybe being way more careful, and especially not using F&F, would be smart things to do. But, obviously some people think they're invulnerable to being scammed and just give away their money.

While anyone can be scammed, so many of these incidents could be avoided with a little (un)common sense.
 
The one that gets me is the unsolicited emails. Why would people not make sure they are sending money to who they think they are? These aren’t even hacked or stolen accounts these are just random emails seemingly from nowhere asking for payment. I just can’t fathom.
 
nighthawk86 said:
Perhaps I should have said "Recently". I'm well aware there have been scams here for years, it just seems that there have been a lot in a very short span of time, Recently.

I agree that there is no foolproof way to avoid all scams. And you make a good point about people not reading the header, however when several threads in just the last month or so have been devoted to scammers, it would be reasonable to conclude that maybe being way more careful, and especially not using F&F, would be smart things to do. But, obviously some people think they're invulnerable to being scammed and just give away their money.

While anyone can be scammed, so many of these incidents could be avoided with a little (un)common sense.
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Agreed.
 
Bigburly912 said:
The one that gets me is the unsolicited emails. Why would people not make sure they are sending money to who they think they are? These aren’t even hacked or stolen accounts these are just random emails seemingly from nowhere asking for payment. I just can’t fathom.
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It's bad enough if you've left your email in the sale thread and get an email you don't vet...but much more of a head scratcher if you hadn't done so and still received an email from the "seller".

One might reasonably wonder how, why and where your email address ended up in their possession.

Welcome to our world.
 
Bigburly912 said:
The one that gets me is the unsolicited emails. Why would people not make sure they are sending money to who they think they are? These aren’t even hacked or stolen accounts these are just random emails seemingly from nowhere asking for payment. I just can’t fathom.
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It isn't random.
They are watching the Exchange. When a person claims a knife, the scammer opens that person's profile and checks for their email. Sometimes it's in their profile messages, sometimes in their post history - either way, easy enough to find quickly. Then they send an email pretending to be the seller & requesting payment.

jazub jazub I'll be back to respond to your reply shortly.
 
jazub said:
hhmoore hhmoore I have received multiple inquiries on sales and declined those offers just in the last week because they were not paying members.
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I had no issue whatsoever with the reasons you listed for not selling to a registered member (especially at this time). My point was that, seeing his message - you went to his profile and, despite noting the warning, instructed him to post his email. I'm not suggesting that you were screwing with him...but, since you said you've already been trending away from dealing with registered members, why go through the motions unless you were considering the sale?
jazub said:
The way I read your message, the connotation seems to be that my actions were at fault in some way. I can't imagine why you, a passive observer, would try to find fault on my behalf here. I got a message of interest late at night laying in bed and responded I would get back to him in the morning. When I woke up, I proceeded as outlined above, seeing his messages in my thread and on his own page. It didn't feel right so I passed.
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You played a role, unintentional though it may have been. You seem to have known of the scams, you saw the warning about profile posts...but your response was still to tell him to post his email. It is unfortunate that the prospective buyer got banned - he didn't seem to comprehend what had happened. He made a few poor choices and it cost him.
jazub said:
I don't claim to be perfect or infallible by any means but I did absolutely nothing with malice in this situation and consider my correspondence respecful and polite.
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My earlier post wasn't intended to be as accusatory as it seemed; but, in the current situation, I feel that sellers should consider the impact of their posts, as well.
 
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Do people leave their expensive camera on their front seat when they park at the mall?

Thats the same as leaving private information out publicly...... It's sometimes difficult seeing, and understanding that
 
hhmoore hhmoore I feel hungover from this experience. I'm baffled why you persist in hammering me. Hindsight is 20/20 and I was lazy late at night and didn't ignore a fishy response like I should have, one time. What else can I say? Do you believe that I deserve public condemnation because either the guy claiming this fraud or some other thief is immoral? I'm glad you can consider every strange permutation of human behavior at all times but I freely admit that I cannot. My nature is not to always assume the worst.

Further, you seem to feel confident that the guy claiming to be scammed was not a scammer. I do not share your view. The whole episode was bizarre and all that crazy stuff about me deleting his emails makes no sense, in any language. It was extremely weird.

Ultimately, I don't know what you want from me. I don't recall starting any beef with you in any way so what is this? I hope you will consider how you would respond if falsely accused of wrongdoing (in a public forum). If you cannot imagine it, I will tell you: it is a bad feeling.
 
hhmoore hhmoore

I will leave it at this...it seems like you presume to know things, (or simply wish to speculate), with evidence you don't possess.

Might be best for you to leave off the presumption of innocence or guilt where you have insufficient information to make a factual determination.

Maybe I'm reading into your comments as being harsher than they need to be. In which case, I apologize.

In any case, I am not going to get into the weeds about how some things were arrived at, because the last thing I want to do is share sources and methods in public where anyone can use it who may have ulterior motives.

It would be best for most folks to stop with the finger pointing and speculation, and instead concentrate on making intelligent and ethical choices in how they operate on the forums and the Exchange to avoid impropriety and worse.

Thanks.
 
Blues Blues much of what I was saying was intended far more generically than it came across. I have already reached out to jazub in that regard.
I have been through the waves of this form of scam before, and it frustrates me that buyers and sellers continue to enable it long after they are aware of the dangers. Jazub didn't do anything I haven't seen multiple others here do; he just happened to be involved in the one that triggered my response. (My apologies, again, jazub jazub ).

Buyers - particularly registered members that are the easiest target of this scam; but I mean all buyers - you need to smarten up. The need for you to post your email is not likely to go away anytime soon (since most sellers are choosing not to post theirs). That doesn't mean you have to be an easy mark. Delete your email ASAP after confirming that you have been contacted by the seller. Do not send payment until you have confirmed that it was actually the seller - there are numerous ways to do that (ideally, the seller will make it easy). Don't be so free about giving your money away to people you don't know. That's what PayPal Friends and Family is, after all - a way to give money. Lastly, SLOW DOWN. It's only a knife. Sure, maybe it's THE KNIFE - the one you've wanted for-e-ver...but how much worse will it be when you find out that, in your haste to score, you sent your money to a scammer so now you don't have the knife or your money?

Sellers - be mindful of the current situation. If you are unwilling to post your contact information, how do you justify requiring others to do so? I'm not suggesting refusing to sell to registered members...but if that's the course you choose, lock your ad so they aren't trying to stake their claim. If you are requiring their email, include something when you contact them that will make it easy to confirm that you are, in fact, the seller - a code word that you subsequently post in the ad, for example (don't use the same one over and over again). Then, once you are in communication, remind them to delete their email. No, you aren't responsible for them; but you can/should try to be part of the solution

I have long been a bug about keeping buying/selling private. I don't post I'll take in threads (yes, I've lost purchases as a result, when sellers insist on it for whatever reason) and I only use private communications when I am selling. Those practices can eliminate this particular scam. (Unfortunately, they do open the door to others.).
I have also long been against PP F&F and had a negative view of sellers that requested that for payment (that, like private communication for sales stemmed from a prior hobby). With the mass shift to F&F over the tax implications, I have had to curb that attitude a bit; but I had already closed my PayPal accounts so it's easier to ignore.
 
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