One to Put Past the BS meter.

well...

anytime anyone starts getting the conspiracy gin all revved up, I get suspiscious. I mean, really, people don't keep secrets very well.

But there have been a few things in recent world history (past 50 years or so) that definately prove that conspiracies of huge proportions CAN and DO occasionally happen.

I think it's possible. I think our current leadership is irresponsible enough to at least "go along," if not initiate (if, of course, the price was right!) the whole thing. And there are, as one of our fellow forumites loves to put it, a whole lot of "sheeple" out there in the good ol' USofA right now...
 
I think that the attacks were carried out by Islamic terrorists who believed in what they were doing.

I don't really believe there were secondary charges or anything.

On the other hand if you look at some of the things that the Project For A New American Century was pushing back in the 90's even before they ever got hold on the gov't, it does make you wonder whether the warning signs of 9/11 were really missed or ignored. Also the whole thing where they were talking about how the changes they wanted would happen slowly barring some "Pearl Harbor" type event it does make you wonder.

We know that the administration had a lock on where Zarquai(sp?) was at before we went in was and passed on taking him out because they were afraid it would undermine support for the invasion, but let the terrorists go ahead and kill 3000 people? It would be hard for me to believe that they would go that far.

On the other hand they don't seem to have a lot of concern for the safety of the US soldiers(in my opinion) and even less for the civilians so I guess it's not beyond the realm of my imagination, but I'm still skeptical.

Also if you look at Richard Perle, Feith and Wolfowitz and their connections with the Israeli right wing, and the financial support they received from them, and their support of Israel's views, sometimes even when it was against the US's strategic interest(like trying to get the US to sell Patriot Missle technology to Israel- when against the agreement they made, Israel sold an earlier version to the Chinese) you question why we really went in in the first place to Iraq.

Of course could just all be coincidence but there's enough stuff that causes red lights to go off for me I'm not willing to totally dismiss the whole thing without really thinking about it.:rolleyes:
 
The problem with stuff like this is the disjointed nature of the "evidence" -- this guy did this, that happened there, this was a missile not a plane, etc. It gives the impression of simply throwing stuff at a wall and watching for what sticks...not the worst way to encourage the flow of more information maybe, but not a good way to prove your point either.

Some questions of mine directed toward the conspiracy theorists:

1. In the history of large buildings, have any collapsed in an uncontrolled manner and fallen straight down?
2. When a building collapses and some windows blow out, can anything besides explosives cause this?
3. What are the characteristics of the land that the WTC and surrounding buildings are constructed on, and what makes this unusual?
4. Going on with Question 3, are there concerns that other nearby buildings are also compromised?
5. Is it usual to take out an insurance policy on a multi-billion dollar purchase immediately after making it? (Or even a $20,000 car, for that matter.)
6. Had Silverstein had a different last name, would he (and Israel) have even been mentioned?
7. Did the "amateurs with boxcutters" have anything going for them, such as funding, training, motivation, and a fairly well thought out plan?
9. If a plane comes down at a fairly steep angle and a high rate of speed (known as "lawndarting" in the flight sim crowd) what does the crash site normally look like?
10. While other buildings have survived "raging infernos", were those infernos caused by passenger aircraft hitting them at 500 miles per hour with a full load of high test?

And the biggee...here it comes...

11. If an organization with nearly limitless material resources (the US government) were to plot a conspiracy like this, would they have left so many loose ends?

I will give the conspiracy theorists this, though...at least they're not blaming Building 7's collapse on death rays anymore. This has improved their credibility a bit in my eyes.
 
Dave -

I think all of your criteria are excellent "parsing" tools to be applied to any inexplicable phenomenon, or curious one.

I know those documentaries are long, but most of the questions you asked above are, for the most part, answered.

Here is another couple if you guys want to check:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=964034652002408586&q=professor+jones
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/

The super-reactionary, Alex Jones sort of theories really tend to put me off... I roll the eyes and move along. But a lot of these folks are NOT of that ilk at all. Physics professors, ex-military ranking officers, demolition experts... It starts to stink.

Best question, IMHO, is the one that asks why this possibility was not even ADDRESSED in the 9/11 report. Not even examined, or mentioned in passing as something that should -- and could! -- be easily refuted.

Why?
 
brokenhallelujah said:
I know those documentaries are long, but most of the questions you asked above are, for the most part, answered.

Actually, they've all been answered. They were meant to be rhetorical. The reason that I bring them up is that most (not all, but most) theories either don't address them properly or ignore them completely out of hand.

Which is fine, really; people are free to believe what they want. I only take issue with the ones that pick and choose their facts and fail to mention the ones that contradict their position, yet present it as indisputable proof of what happened. It's every bit as bad as any alleged coverup that they're seeking to expose.

If you're implying that my questions were addressed and explained in those videos, then no, they weren't -- at least, not in the first two. That's where I got the questions from in the first place.

To be honest, I'm not all that familiar with what is and isn't in the 9/11 report. I've seen a lot of conflicting things, a lot of opinions, and a lot of theories about what happened and why and I'm not sure what to make of it anymore. When this happens, I tend to favor the simplest answer as probably being the most accurate.
 
Dave Rishar said:
11. If an organization with nearly limitless material resources (the US government) were to plot a conspiracy like this, would they have left so many loose ends?

That's a good question. I mean so many people have leaked stuff , like about the US secret prisons and the Abu Gharib photos, I really have a hard time thinking that if the US was somehow responsible that somebody wouldn't have stepped forward by now and exposed it.
 
I'm not going to say that every conspiracy theory is just "Bah Humbug", but I did notice something many moons ago, and that is that many major events or deaths are later seen as conspiracies.

Here are just some examples:

JFK death (more than one man did the firing, Johnson had something to do with it, the mafia did it, the Russians had it done, etc.)

Moon landing never happened, it was all staged (though I aways wondered why the American flag seemed to be waving on the moon) ;)

Bruce Lee (people thinking he is/was still alive, it was all set up)

Tupac Shakur (same as above)

Elvis (same as above)

Marilyn Monroe (was murdered, Kennedy family had something to do with it, it was a mob hit, etc.)

9/11 (the gov'ment did it, Bush knew, the Israeli did it, you name it)

Pearl Harbor (the U.S. let it happen to have an excuse to go to war with Japan)

The U.S. has deceased aliens in their inventory

Jimmy Hoffa.............. Um, he's dead for sure ;)

Hitler (did not kill himself, he got away)

And the list can go on and on.

Not saying that all the above are all just wild conspiracy theories, but just look at how common it is to have almost instant suspicions every time a major event or death occurs.

So yeah, for the most part, IMO, there probably is nothing but a lot of "Bah Humbug" going on with most, if not all of these conspiracy theories.

Again, IMO :)
 
I think like most things, given most americans short attention span, in a few years no one will really care other then those who lost family/friends to 9/11 or Iraq. Most kids will know every top 10 music video, song title, adults will know where to get the cheapest gass and where the nearest Starbucks is, so you know, the important stuff.
Like many of the items Jimmy Jimenez lsted above..who cares? Do I know the background on some of the things he listed, yes, does anyone care, not really, or no. You really can't get the general public mad enough about anything to do anything, so why bother. The feeling is the same way in other countries I've traveled to, why bother, our lives are hard enough, I can't be bothered with being concerned with some other persons problems. So if you really want to know what happend with Tupac, or OJ, or John Belushi, and the little bit I know about our current conflict I'd share but I'm not sure anyone really wants to know.....there 2 1/2 cents.
 
hollowdweller said:
That's a good question. I mean so many people have leaked stuff , like about the US secret prisons and the Abu Gharib photos, I really have a hard time thinking that if the US was somehow responsible that somebody wouldn't have stepped forward by now and exposed it.

You hit the major reason why I tend not to believe in conspiracy theories, HD...simply put, people are terrible at keeping secrets. They like to talk about stuff. If it's something that they did and they can't talk about, they'll talk about something that someone else did. I saw it constantly in the navy and I see it constantly in prison. (Although, frankly, the stuff that I heard in the navy was a whole lot less disturbing. Don't ask.)

But as Mr. Jiminez showed us, people love a good conspiracy! We have a history for finding things where there are none and if the evidence is iffy and/or the desire is there, one can argue pretty much anything...

JFK death: look at all those sealed records! The Magic Bullet Theory is easy enough to disprove but if nothing happened, why are the records sealed? (Satori says, LHO did it because he was nuts and Jack Ruby killed him because he was nuts. It happens.)
Moon landing: prove that it happened. And once you do, give me an hour or two and I'll photoshop a zombie invasion of Silverdale. Pics mean nothing. I haven't personally been to the moon...have you? (Satori says, while it can't be proven 100% -- much like the fact that the Earth is round can't be proven 100% -- I'm a believer regardless.)
Bruce Lee: Have you seen his body? I've seen his grave but I haven't seen a body. (Satori says, yeah, he's dead.)
Tupac Shakur: The government was out to get him. Didn't you listen to his songs? (Satori says, live like a gangsta, die like a gangsta. The government's got more important people to kill.)
Elvis: I can't really justify this one. He was on the way down and nobody lives forever. (Satori says, didn't you watch "Bubba Ho-Tep"? Of course he faked his death. He's still dead, but he didn't die like you think he did. Hail to the king.)
Marylin: This is another tricky one. I actually think something may have occured here. (Satori says, even sceptics have an occasional lapse of judgement.)
9/11: I've already covered this. (Satori says, the Mossad has instructed me that I'm not authorized to discuss it in depth.)
Pearl Harbor: I think FDR knew about it and let it slide. It would've been very difficult to get a largely isolationist nation involved in a foreign war without an attack on US soil. (Satori says, see? He did it again.)
Jimmy Hoffa: He disappeared for monetary reasons. He wasn't killed. (Satori says, hoist the BS flag -- Dave is a Teamster. Hoffa's buried under the end zone at Giants stadium. This is common knowledge in Jersey.)
Hitler: Kind of believable, when you think about it. Only a few very loyal supporters supposedly saw him die, and this at a time when most of the Nazi VIP's were attempting to escape and evade. The Russians picked up a charred corpse with a bullet hole in the skull and they were fairly close-lipped about just what they'd found for a long time...and they have a history of fibbing about things like that. What do you think? (Satori says, it wouldn't be surprising in the least if he'd made it out. He had look-alikes and he had a lot of allies in unlikely places, and if he'd made it to South America he probably would've been golden. Today he would, however, be the world's oldest man at 116 and someone probably would've heard about it by now. He's gone. Thank God.)

That pretty much covers the usual suspects. I intentionally omitted the Loch Ness Monster because it's bringing in a shipment of Aztec gold from the Bermuda Triangle and part of that is being diverted to my bank account, and the Illuminati are difficult to deal with in the case of pay disputes. (Even if you're a Teamster.)
 
All significant world events are seen as coverups by some people...

I imagine that if I could make up some fake news story (never happened at all), sell it to the unknowing world, and in the story everything was perfectly fitting....in a few years people would talk about my fake world event as some government conspiracy and show how Bush (necessarily) had created it.

I find it interesting that all of these events can be seen as coverups (hell if I know, maybe they are) but the really obvious stuff is ignored...Skull and Bones comes to mind....I rather doubt they have some sort of super powerful ruling agenda (as much as they might like me to imagine so), but we should be bothered when both our candidates come from the society and both refuse to talk about it. I'm not asking for much, just say it was a fraternity with some cool socials....but I'm not happy with the idea they can just not talk about it at all and no one seems to notice. They should address whatever small public concern S&B involves.

All in all, I grow more suspicious of Yale in its entirety year after year....I'm considered it for graduate school just so I can see how much is in my head. Well, that and it's Yale. What's in a name?
 
johngalt said:
and the little bit I know about our current conflict I'd share but I'm not sure anyone really wants to know.....there 2 1/2 cents.

No, I would love to know... I am curious, hence this thread. Please, divulge away, John.
 
Well, I know the guy who did the triangulation and location on OJ during his pursuit. I also know the conversation he had with his attorney during that pursuit..thats a little poop.
Tupac, I know the behind the scenes details involving several off-duty LAPD Officers, including Perez, Mack and several others.
Our current conflict, wow, I hold alot in on this one because my best friend was killed by an IED two years ago near Baghdad. Most of the obvious stuff about our predetermination about the Iraq invasion, and the process of selectivly gathering our intelligence and molding it to present a slanted view towards the invasion. The knowledge that there was no actionable intelligence about the issue of WMD's. Deliberate misstatement of fact on a number of issues, that were never cleared though the CIA, and presented as fact to the public and UN. Aluminum tubes, yellow cake, etc..
Unfortuantly, years from now when the FOI allows the review of the doccuments to show these issues, it will be old news and most of the players will have passed away.
My other good friend, who was the best man at my friends wedding, is heading to Iraq in June, Camp Taji.
The whole situation, as complex as it is, is undermined by critical flaws at the top levels. Some of our recently retired Generals are speaking out about it, but there is alot more that is being held back. The quickest way to shut down the conversation is to say you are not backing our troops, or retreating in the face of the enemy. I sure wish Col. Hackworth was still around and continuing to pursue the best interest of our troops, politicians be damned. Any forumites who get a chance check out his sites www.hackworth.com and www.sftt.org . johngalt, out
 
Conspiracies?
It all boils down to one thing: follow the money. In today's world, money is power. There ARE people who crave power over others so much that they do whatever it takes to get it, and keep it. This is what is behind pretty much everything you see.
Can you figure out who is taking power from a certain event? That is the question. It is usually pretty hard to figure out, by design.
We know, historical fact, that there were people in Europe hundreds of years ago who fomented wars between countries and sold arms/loaned money to both sides, reaping the profits. When peace broke out, they started another war because it was how they made money. Do you honestly think these folks have gone quietly into the night? Do you really think there is no one who picked up on their ideas?
Money and power is the key. Find where the money and power is going, and you can find who is behind whatever action you are looking at.
 
I'd like it known for the record that I'm presently recovering from...something, and when I wrote my posts above I was running a fever of over 104 and now that I think about it, I was actually delerious.

It doesn't change my point of view (and I'm not going to go back and edit anything) but the text seems a little...I don't know, maniacal? This is why.

I'm much better now. Any more foolishness on my part won't be blamed on illness.
 
Dave, your post was great! I just hope if any forums member are holding back on the real good unknown info, like Bigfoot and the Lock Ness Monster, give that stuff up...my wtuff is way too boring and most of it is dated...BIGFOOT cough it up!
 
Munk -

If you want to move this thread to the political discussion area of the forum, please do. I honestly think that might be a more appropriate place for it.

I trust you guys, so I put it past you first.

Heh.
 
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