One to Put Past the BS meter.

One final note on this: there was a special on the History Channel tonight dealing with the WTC attack that's been played a few times in the past. It answers most of the questions posed by the videos in those links acceptably and deals with some issues (such as the slurry wall) that aren't often mentioned.

Again, people are free to believe what they want to believe.
 
The White House was not capable to cover up the so called "CIA-leak". Do you really think anyone would be able to cover up something as big as 9/11?

Who would wan't to participate in such an action inside the governmental organisations? How about the London and Madrid attacks? How about the capture of KSM in Pakistan?

All a hoax?

All U.S. government agents?

i don't think ANYONE in th'e government would be foolish enough to try such a hineous crime and expect it to be a "secret" ?

IIRC no war crime, stays uncovered in these days.
 
I don't need to be an engineer to figure out that flying a huge highspeed aircraft loaded with fuel into a skyscraper is more than enough to bring it down.

With that said, I'll add that we still have wide open borders that are out of control. Doesn't our government ever learn? We even have illegals demonstrating in our streets. Outrageous!

Making me take my shoes off at an airport will not change that.

Additional conspiracy theories just make some people money. Look at the stuff still going on over the Kennedy assasination.

The question asked for opinions. That's mine.
 
Warning! Thread veer imminent!

Steve Poll said:
With that said, I'll add that we still have wide open borders that are out of control. Doesn't our government ever learn? We even have illegals demonstrating in our streets. Outrageous!

Theory: illegal immigrants are a necessary component of the American economy. The jobs that they "steal" are jobs that legal residents often aren't interested in in the first place.

Discuss.
 
As an interested observer from the other side of the world, I must say this thread is more enlightening than all the TV BS that can be accessed at this time :thumbup: :thumbup:

Thanks guys - keep it up!
 
The theory that illegal immigrants are necessary seems to be true. It would seem to me that if something illegal is necessary, a way to make it legal should be sought for.
When I lived in Washington state, I worked at an apple orchard for a few summers. The apples were picked by 95% Mexicans, and a few hippies. I traveled further down the coast, and everywhere it was the same. The crops were harvested by Mexicans. I don't know if they were legal or not, but there they were. Almost no non Mexicans in the bunch.
Now I live in Pennsylvania, and there are mushroom farms. Almost all the mushroom workers are Mexican.
I don't know why non Mexicans do not work with crops, but it seems like the Mexicans do those jobs all over the country.
We need to eat, so it does seem like we need the Mexican workers. My opinion is, if we need them, do something to make it legal for them to come in. They will come anyway, why make criminals out of them?
 
Dave Rishar said:
Warning! Thread veer imminent!



Theory: illegal immigrants are a necessary component of the American economy. The jobs that they "steal" are jobs that legal residents often aren't interested in in the first place.

Discuss.

Hi Dave:

Since they are illegal, your point in theory is mute. It's also balogna in my opinion.

For instance. Suppose an american (not rich, just a regular guy) wanted to strike out on his own and go into business in the american south west. He decides to offer his services as a house painter and sets a fair or even low rate for his services. He buys tools, business license, liability insurance, etc.

He then finds out there is no way he can succeed because illegals paint cheaper than he can. Illegals who are criminals (illegal, get it?) have no license, insurance, etc. and don't pay taxes. Not to mention scoff at our laws and demonstrate against our government and our laws.

It doesn't have to be painting. It could be construction, food service or many other industries.

These illegals hurt americans. Whining that they do jobs americans will not do isn't so. Americans (yeah, probably poor ones) never get a chance to take those jobs.

The illegals damage our medical facilities by going to hospitals knowing they cannot pay and many hospitals have gone bankrupt as a result. Look it up. They demand bi-lingual schools. Why? Because they don't want our language and culture. Just what they can get out of us.

The current unprecedented wave of illegals is nothing like the immigrants that came to this country in the first half of the 1900's.

We haven't even talked about the crime they cause or the dieases they bring to america. Diseases that were eradicated until this flood of illgals swept into america. They enter without criminal record check or medical checks. Why does that happen? Again, because they have no respect for out laws or culture and want only what they can get from us.

The immigrants in the early 1900's played by the rules and came here legally.

The new wave is here "illegally" and it looks like they will stay because out vote counters in government are weak and greedy in their own way.

Since nothing is done to close our borders the situation will only get worse.

Are your children innoculated against tuberculosis, polio and other diseases that had been eradicated in this country?

I'm ranted out.
 
Hey Steve,
Most of the illegals do not seem to be skilled workers undercutting American skilled workers. They come here because they DON'T have marketable skills!
Of course I'm sure there are exceptions, but I was in my own business for years and anybody, American or otherwise, who tries to operate a business without licences, taxes, revenue stamps, etc. will not go for long without being found out. And once they find you, they will not let you have a moment's peace until you pay, and pay, and then pay. Did I say you will have to pay?
I know of no program that allows illegal or legal immigrants to sidestep this requirement.
However, as I have said, I saw with my own eyes crops being harvested by almost 100% Mexican crews, over and over again. I saw it because I was the only American on the job in most cases. I was always well treated by the Mexicans, who were friendly and hard working. I doubt they would have been as well treated if they were the only Mexican in a crew of Americans.
 
Here in New York State I've personally met quite a few "illegal" immigrants that work in businesses other than field work. Many of these folks work in the restaurant business, retail stores, grocery markets, cleaning businesses, child care, automobile detailing, car washes, and other fields.

Though these jobs that they do may not be positions that the average college graduate would want or be interested in, there are plenty of Americans that would gladly fill these jobs, if only paid accordingly for their labor.

Many businesses, big and small, have simply become addicted to hiring folks that cost them less money overall and that "greatly" help their bottom lines.

It's a form of outsourcing, but in the most un-american way possible, IMO.

At least with a company that outsources to foreign countries, it does not cause direct support of people breaking U.S. laws.
One may get very upset at seeing so many jobs being given to people located in other countries, which causes many U.S. jobs to be lost forever, but at least they are not supporting an "illegal" worker. Hiring an undocumented worker is "directly" supporting the unacceptable behavior of people crossing our borders without permission. This is truly a very un-american thing to be involved in, IMO.

Though many will defend themselves for doing this "undocumented" hiring, it usually just comes down to a personal greed. Most of these people convince themselves that what they are doing is okay, even though it's obvious that they are hurting our country in order to feed that personal greed. "Americans" themselves are the cause we are having this immigration problem, and we must cut out the sugar source that is bringing us the ants.

I believe there should be "major" Government involvement at all levels (City, State, and Federal).

*Laws should be made easier to arrest and deport "illegals".

*Police agencies should be given the authority to arrest "illegals" (extra police manpower should be given to those areas that have the worst "illegal" immigrant problems).

*Major walls/fencing, National Guard troops, high quality electronic surveilance systems, higher concentration of Coast Guard near plagued areas, and much more should be placed on borders and water ways.

*Extreme penalties for hiring "illegals", including losing business licenses and such, if found guilty of the offense more than once.

*Law change (though I really don't know if it's needed, since it may apply now with the correct interpretation), where persons born here will automatically be U.S. citizens only when born to an American citizen, or to a legal U.S. resident.

*Social Services should be made legal only for U.S. citizens.

*Proof of citizenship should be shown at voting stations. I know this one may be a problem for some. For the record, I have no problem with it, and should go far in stopping all the illegal voting practices that many "Americans" are involved in as well.

*Schools should only teach U.S. citizens and legal U.S. residents.

*No legal licenses, (drivers license or otherwise), should be given to any non U.S. citizen or legal U.S. resident.

*Medical care should only be given to an "illegal" immigrant if there is a true emergency situation, but then the hospital should also be required to call immigration services to deport the person once he/she has been treated and is well enough to be moved. Child birth is an emergency, but the child should remain a citizen of whatever country the mother illegally came from.

There are a ton of other steps that would need to be taken to truly make a difference. These steps are not sissy steps with no teeth to them, but they can be expensive, they may seem harsh to some (though they don't seem harsh to me), they may be politically incorrect, etc.

But, in the end, how serious of an effort are we willing to put forward in order to really make a difference in this immigration problem? I for one would not complain one bit if all the above and more are put into effect. Actually, I would greatly applaud such measures be taken :)
 
Hey, let's not forget we are talking about PEOPLE here. Which one of us would not try to force our way into the USA to get a job and send money home if we were watching our children starve?
I do not think there is ONE of us on this forum who would not at least TRY to get up here and send money home. And if the OFFICIAL way, the LEGAL way was taking years, who among us would say "Well, I guess my daughter will just have to starve to death and die because I cannot get an official pass into the USA". No way in h*ll! You know in your heart you would try to get work. This is what these people are up against. Things are so bad for them that they risk death to get here. Why? because if they don't take the risk, they will surely die at home. Now look in the mirror and tell me YOU would just shrug YOUR shoulders and watch your family die, one by one.
 
And the same people who say "Let the Mexicans die! They don't belong here" are the SAME folks who say Iraq was a good war because we helped the Iraqi people off Saddam Hussain!
Where is the logic in that?
 
I'm sorry, but that's an "extremely" poor argument.

We know the world has problems, America having a lot of it's own.
That said, I am not one to say "let the Mexicans die", but I'm not one to say "open borders is fine" either!


The Mexican Government has more than it's share of problems, but so too does probably half of Latin America. Does this mean that we should just open our borders to "any" person that is not happy with their own situation at home?


We are the United States of America. As an American citizen, I must respect other countries borders, why should others living elsewhere feel that's it's okay to just enter our country without permission?!

If you knock on my door, I may ask you to step inside.
I may also ask you to go away, maybe to come back later, or maybe to never come back. In any case, it being my home, I have that right. If you entered my home without permission, maybe because you were hungry and smelled some food, it still does not make it right for you to come in without permission. My mistake may have been to leave my door unlocked, but that was still not an invitation for you to come in. I may feel pity on you, I may decide to even feed you, but then you will have to go (quietly or by force, your choice). U.S.A. is my home, as it is for about 300 million Americans, and I demand that we have the right and responsibility to lock our doors, to secure our loved ones, and to let in only who we choose to let in.

I'm not going to lie to you, "The Shadow", it seems that you and I look at things in completely different ways. So much so, that I believe I would not adapt to living in an America that you describe. I may be wrong, but I think a majority of "American" citizens would agree with me here, but many "non Americans" would feel right at home with your views. You can look at that and say that it would all be an improvement with a USA like you see it, but I cringe at that thought.

However, we are Americans, and we have the right to express our views, no matter how wrong you are ;)

LOL! ;)
 
I'm not saying anybody can just drop by, what I am saying is, there is a problem and it will not go away. Is it right to make everyone a criminal who is so bad off that he risks his life to try and earn some money?
Hey, they are trying to EARN money, they are not coming up here to STEAL it! We have enough born-right-here Americans who just mug/steal/extort money. But these people come up here to work.
No, the problem is not going to go away. Enforce the borders, sure, try it. You will find it about as effective as the war on drugs. So what do you do? You cannot stop this, no matter how much you may want to stop it. You will never stop it. So, what do you do?
What we do now is pretty much nothing. Is that the right answer?
Would it be right to just send them all home?
Somehow that does not sound right to me, but I can't say I know the answer either.
You may say you don't like "my" America, but Jim, you are living in it right now! The borders today are pretty much open, and illegal immigrants/drugs/etc. come on in all the time. If we want to change things, well that is a good thing, but what do we do? Force does not work, it is being tried right now and it is not working.
 
There are obviously some strong opinions on the issue.

My problem with it is that a lot of people act downright illogically over it. These folks are almost entirely engaged in unskilled labor. A lot of them are seasonal pickers. These are not the sort of jobs most people aspire to. I find it annoying when out-of-work professionals blame their woes on illegal immigration.

Why are they hired in the first place?

Another fly in the ointment is enforcement/deportation/prevention. Everyone calls for something to be done. Very few people have any idea about what ought to be done, just that something should be done. Some people have made a few suggestions but they tend not to really be feasible in terms of funding, and some of them wouldn't work anyway. Build a 50-foot wall across southern Arizona? They'll bring a 55-foot ladder with them. Hire 1 million Border Patrol agents and picket the border? People made it out of East Germany. This is very easy by comparison.

I agree that something needs to be done, but let's figure out what that should be first before we start pestering our elected officials to DO SOMETHING NOW LOLZ because without guidance, they may do the wrong thing. (As they've been doing for some time now, or more accurately, doing nothing for fear of doing the wrong thing.) And let's be sure that we're focusing on the problem and not the symptoms.
 
Jim, you said "I demand that we have the right and responsibility to lock our doors, to secure our loved ones, and to let in only who we choose to let in."
This sounds good, and correct, but realize that you can only lock the door to your own home, and you can only control who comes in to your own home. The plain truth is, the borders are not secure, anybody who is willing to take the risk stands a good chance of getting in, and all the demanding in the world will not change it.
So, the question becomes, what do you do in light of the fact that what you really want to see happen, can not and will not happen?
 
The_Shadow said:
I'm not saying anybody can just drop by, what I am saying is, there is a problem and it will not go away. Is it right to make everyone a criminal who is so bad off that he risks his life to try and earn some money?
Hey, they are trying to EARN money, they are not coming up here to STEAL it! We have enough born-right-here Americans who just mug/steal/extort money. But these people come up here to work.
No, the problem is not going to go away. Enforce the borders, sure, try it. You will find it about as effective as the war on drugs. So what do you do? You cannot stop this, no matter how much you may want to stop it. You will never stop it. So, what do you do?
What we do now is pretty much nothing. Is that the right answer?
Would it be right to just send them all home?
Somehow that does not sound right to me, but I can't say I know the answer either.
You may say you don't like "my" America, but Jim, you are living in it right now! The borders today are pretty much open, and illegal immigrants/drugs/etc. come on in all the time. If we want to change things, well that is a good thing, but what do we do? Force does not work, it is being tried right now and it is not working.


Though I'm not saying we should beat them down like animals because they want to come here and work, I don't think that we should take their excuses as valid reasons to break our laws either. Again, this is "our" home, not theirs. Oh sure, you will hear them say that much of the U.S. was theirs,................. but so what!

Before Spain, Britain, France, and others stepped onto this new world, this "all" belonged to someone else. But, this is "now" the situation. Our Northern border is not with a Native American Country, but instead with Canada. Our Southern border is not with the country of Aztec or what have you, but with Mexico.

I can't worry too deeply that the land I'm on may have been taken from a Native American. I can't even worry about who may have lived in my current dwelling before we moved in. This is now my home, my windows, my doors, my walls, no matter what the history before us may have been. I will defend my home from intruders, and my family and I are the ones that let in or turn away people coming to our doors.

I live in the real world, not in an emotional "bah humbug" state. Do I feel bad for homeless folks and such?,..................... yes, I do. But I'm not wiling to let these folks into my home, and I surely will not allow/excuse them breaking in.

That's how I see this immigration problem, as most people see their own domains/homes.

Have we allowed the current situation to go to far?............... Oh yes! Are we now in a situation that may help put a brighter spotlight on this problem?................ Oh yes!

Your responses almost seem like an "oh well, deal with it", but I feel that after many years of neglect, the majority of the people may actually now want some action be taken.

Sorry to say, the drug situation is another poor argument.
First you mention the war, now the Drug situation. I personally think that one must concentrate on the issue at hand, and what is being discussed here is "illegal immigration".

It's true that drugs are also brought in because of U.S. demand, but that's not talking about people, it's drugs!................... I'm talking flesh and blood people here. IMO, some of the actions I mentioned above would be needed to seriously deter illegal immigration, they are certainly not impossible goals, but requires the American people to make it a priority issue. It certainly is for me, more now than ever before. Though it has always bugged me, these last few months has really shown me how bad the situation really is.

No "viva Mexico" for me, since my concern is "Long live the USA" :)
 
Jim, people want action right now because right now this is on TV. In two months, something else will be on TV and nobody will be thinking about immigration.
I can see your point, at some junction you have to deal with reality and not what should have been. I agree with that one. I just don't think there is anything that can be done to stop the people from coming in. Given that I don't think you can stop it, my concern is, what do you do about something that you don't really like, but cannot stop?
I don't think shooting them all is a good idea, I can't say just send them all home, because they would just die a slow death anyway. I don't have the answer, but something tells me it is better to err on the side of mercy than to err on the side of harsh justice.
Think about this, probably the only way this will ever stop is if the Mexican economy gets really good and jobs are available in Mexico that pay as well or better than in the USA. If that was true, the people would probably rather stay home. But that opens another can of worms which is, how do you do that? It would probably take so much money to invest in Mexico and get it up to speed that you could fund 2 or 3 Iraq wars for the price.
But, strange as I am, if we HAVE to throw money around, I would rather see it go to helping Mexico than to killing Iraqis. Of course, I would rather that we just leave everybody alone and go back to the Monroe doctrine, but there is no more chance of that than there is of secure borders!
 
The Shadow wrote:

"I just don't think there is anything that can be done to stop the people from coming in. Given that I don't think you can stop it, my concern is, what do you do about something that you don't really like, but cannot stop?"



Again, we simply see things so differently, it ain't funny ;)

I don't agree with you one bit that nothing can be done, but actually that much can and should be done.

I also believe that, if it has not hit the boiling point yet on this issue, it may soon do so.

I'm not one to think that this is an issue that the U.S. has no wiggle room in handling. Above I listed a bunch of steps that can be taken, and that's just coming from little ole me, just imagine what other ideas are out there that could be put in place if the U.S. people finally decide that enough is enough.

I'll tell you what, if there were to be a serious 3rd party Presidential Candidate with some really good financial backing, and that would run on a platform that placed immigration control as a priority, it would probably take as much Democrat as Republican votes away from the main two party candidates. It would need to be a respected and well known person, but a situation like our current "illegal imigration" problem, could be a very strong issue to really form a strong third party.

The Shadow,............ this is simply an issue that you and I would have a hard time seeing eye to eye on ;)

Again,.................. Long live the USA! ;)
 
Hey Jimbo, looks like you called this one right! I guess it has reached the boiling point with King George sending troops to the border!
You know, maybe my problem is that living in Pennsylvania, Mexican immigrants are no big deal here. I guess it IS a big deal somewhere and perhaps I am missing it.
I heard on CNN yesterday that an Arizona sherrif sent the mexican president a bill for the cost of illegals in his town. I wonder if he got any kind of response on that one?
 
Steve Poll said:
I don't need to be an engineer to figure out that flying a huge highspeed aircraft loaded with fuel into a skyscraper is more than enough to bring it down.

Hm. Funny. Every single report by every single engineer who has spoken out about this has disagreed with that point. So have the ones that I personally know and respect. Jet fuel simply does not burn hot enough.

And a B-29 didn't take down the empire state building!

Just steering the thread a bit, fellers.
 
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