Ontario Rat-3

With the low hardness Ontario is running 1095 though it is overkill on carbon content, they could get the same hardness with a medium carbon steel in bainite, which on paper tends to be insanely tough.
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A small batch Bainite heat treat (this is the kind sword makers do on a one by one basis right?) on a $10 machete or $35 Marine Raider or whatever does not seem like it is realistic.

I am looking forward to seeing Thom's reports's of his Banite RD as well, as I know little about this heat treat, as the martensite is by far the most prevelent in knives.

As well, consider that most Ontario products are either USGI or authorized. Many are made to US MIL specs. So if the quatermaster wants 190 machetes, that's what Ontario has to make.

Many other machete makers use lower carbon steels, Martindale and Tramontina for example. I don't think there is an advatage to using the lower carbon steels in terms of toughness in that if an Ontario edge ripples under a certain use, probably the MArtindale would too. However, where the lower carbon content comes into play si that the damage is less prone to spread. Medium carbon steel, like 1050-1075 are not nearly as prone to damage propogation as 1095. Even 1084 is better in that regards IMHO.

The lower you drop the carbon level, the more true that is. Try to propogate cracks through wrought iron. That is one why some impact tools used iron heads with hard steel inserts. They handle impact strains (i.e. eye of an axe) better than high carbon steels, and their is no tangible benfit to aded strength. Toughness reigns supreme there.

Also, the RAT line, being more expensive, better finished, may well have better QC than the standard Ontario line, tighter tolerances.

I do not care for the RTAK for various reason, but my RAT-7 knives are solid.
 
This started as a thread where someone had purchased a new knife- a nice looking little blade, I might add, and now it has deteriorated into some sort of arguement. Not every blade made must be as strong or robust as a Busse or SwampRat. Whatever happened to people looking at a picture, maybe asking a question or two, and appreciating the knife?
Back on track!

That thing looks pretty nice, I wouldnt mind picking one up sometime.
 
Again, we make no claims based on comparison with other makers/manufacturers. A properly sharpened Mora will out-slice anything we make (as will a good kitchen knife). A Busse will most likely out-bend (before breaking) anything we make. That's cool also. All we can do is offer up our designs to the market, test our designs by putting them in the hands of users such as military and outdoorsmen before they hit the market, control QC as best we can in a production environment, apply customer service that's second to none (which also means fast response and high communication levels), and offer the consumer a good product at a fair price. We still believe in the American Capitalist way and also believe that the consumer, no matter how big or small, is the ultimate judge of whether a product or business is successful. We're in this for the long haul because there's a lot of military, adventurers, LEOs, and every day knife users that believe in our product and carry it on a daily basis in places all over the globe. We're proud of that.

As a side note, the guy that mentioned he was looking for a similar small knife in 1095 should look at the Newt Livesay Bow Huntin' Buddy. I'm not sure if you can still find one available but if you will email me your address to jeff@ontariorat.com I'll send one to you.

Best regards,

Jeff
 
Hi Jeff,
did I miss it or did you say we're gonna get a Rat 3, 1095 :D . If not let me know, because then I'd have to order the D2 version.
Markus
 
I just got a RAT3 and a TAK-1 in stock, the D2 '7 has sold very well with people buying a second one a week later, why, I don't know but its happened a lot.

Jeff, I have been very pleasantly surprised with these knives and I enthusiastically reccomend them.

I just wanted to add that I havent had to send one back yet. I can't comment on the heat treat but I am very critical of fit & finish. I have sent back some other makers things that appaulaed me that they had let it get through the so called QC. I don't wish to sound like a rah-rah boy, but credit where credit is due. for the money, you can do a hell of a lot worse!
 
Markus,
It is not likely we will make the RAT 3 in 1095 at least in the forseeable future. I'd get the D2.:) Many thanks Temper and I am glad the knives are selling well for you. Thanks again, Mike
 
can someone post a pic of them holding this knife so i can get a good feel of how big the knife really is and how it fills the hand.

thanks
 
Go to www.ontariorat.com and there is a large photo with 45 cal rounds next to it for size. The handle is about 4 inches long by 1 1/4 wide (micarta). I'll try to see if I can find something with a hand on it but then hands vary in size also.:) Mike
 
Sorry for going off topic, but Trace, I hope you got my mail about the Armageddon per my terms. I apologize for contacting you this way but it's sooooo hard to get a hold of you through email.

sincere regards,

Cliff
 
Well, my collection's not as big as some, but I'm as die-hard a Busse/Swamp user as just about anyone, and I'll be picking one of these little guys up!! Looks like a neat little knife! Somehow I missed its debut but now my curiosity is piqued. And my past experience with R.A.T. customer service has been very positive.:)

Of course, I don't think my older R.A.T. skinner/utility (Greco collaboration) will ever be replaced by ANY knife as my all-time favorite small fixed blade, but I always give the new guys a shot.

P.S. If anyone out there has another of these R.A.T. Grecos, I'll pay handsomely to pick up a spare. ;)
 
Great looking little fixed blade. I have one coming my way as we speak!
 
R.A.T., Why are they made in 1095 instead of 5160. Wouldn't 5160 be tougher? Not that either is better, but could you explain the reasoning?
Thanx.
 
knifetester said:
I am looking forward to seeing Thom's reports's of his Banite RD as well ...
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I think it will be informative, any experimentation is a good thing.

I don't think there is an advatage to using the lower carbon steels in terms of toughness ...
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The lower carbon steels have a higher HRC toughness peak generally. Undersoftening steels to obtain toughness usually generally doesn't give optimal properties.

You also don't have to deal with the lathe/plate martensite issue which can create high fragility unless care is taken on the soak to not dissolve too much of the carbon.

I do not care for the RTAK for various reasons ...
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I don't have any personal use for a 3/16" blade in that size, but the basic blade profile is decent enough, it is pretty much just an extended bowie which is a very common profile.

I'd use thicker stock as I would want it mainly for woody vegetation. I'd actually be curious about 3/8" with a 2.5" blade to see if you could get more fluidity like a decent khukuri.

I like the basic design of the RAT-7, clean, I would take 1/4" stock though to get more chopping power, fluidity in woods, and better splitting ability, plus it is nicer for hand on spine work like draw knife cutting.

I don't have much use for 3/16" stock in general on that class of knives, I like it on smaller knives, say 4" or so as it allows really heavy use, you don't need 1/4" stock there, just don't have the leverage.

Rat Finkenstein said:
Not every blade made must be as strong or robust as a Busse or SwampRat.
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Yeah, like the other three knives I mentioned in the origional post, Deerhunter, Mora 2000 and Boye drop point hunter.

-Cliff
 
I was so into this thread that I had to go out and buy one if these. I drove to Knifecenter today and got the last one they had. It was packed with a tan sheath, which I didn't really care for, but I wanted the knife so bad that I didn't care what color the sheath was. The folks and Knifecenter say that the RAT-3's fly off the shelves faster than they can stock them! I am not surprised. I used mine to prepare dinner tonight, which is not a big chore by comparison to wood cutting and the like, but it works good for chopping meat. I am going to take this knife with me to desert warfare training this monday to test it out, then to combat medic training and finally to Iraq with me in December. I took a Strider with me last time I went to the desert and it was cool, but I wasn't as excited about it as I am with this knife. Why? Because this knife seems like a ton of knife for the money. I am gonna edc it for a while and give it an honest workout. R.A.T. thank you for making such a great knife for the money. I only wish the military would issue something like this to us troops. As far as my eyes can see you have designed a first rate product. I don't see what all the negative fuss is about. Cliff may or may not know a thing or two about knife design and use, but I am the end user who will use this knife and I love it. Thanks
 
USAFSP,

Not sure when the military will be showing an interest in the RAT-3, typically it's a long drawn out system of using a new product in the field before any quantity buying happens, but I do know one branch is buying a LOT of TAKs. We have also had a lot of individual purchases of the RAT-3 by mil folk like yourself.

The RAT-3 is selling well and I predict it will probably become the best selling of all our knives. During our production meeting this week we were already discussing starting the next production run of RAT-3s and they have only been on dealers shelves less than a month. In my opinion it's a great bang for the buck, especially coupled with the sheath system it comes with.

BTW: email me your mailing address and let me know what color sheath you originally wanted. I just happen to have all three colors here and I will mail you one. email: jeff@ontariorat.com

Thanks for using our product!

Jeff

BTW: the "end user" as you call it is our only concern when it comes to knife manufacturing. Whether the end user is a soldier or someone who just wants a decent knife for a fair price. Mike and I were at the Ontario plant in New York all last week. I can tell you from first-hand experience that the employees at Ontario are concerned about the end user. It makes them feel good to know their work is being used all over the world by people who place trust in them. Many of them read Bladeforums and some even print the posts out and pass them around to others in the plant.
 
I don't understand how you guys can recommend this knife without qualifying the handle.

I ordered one, got it in the mail, held it or tried to, then put it back in the package and mailed it back the next day. The handle just didn't let me get a positive enough grip on it and if it doesn't have that, it's not worth carrying or using. That knife needs to be handled before buying. It may fit somebody but I'd be suprised if anybody said "wow, feels perfect".

So many reviews are only someones opinion and in most cases they don't know any better so their recommendation is not valid, unless you consider "I recommend this knife because I have one" as valid.

I don't know Cliff Stamp from a hole in the ground but I find his reviews consistently more accurate and impartial than any others I've read. So Cliff, keep it up!

Collecter
 
Got mine yesterday. Nice knife for the price, but the grip is just not right for me.
 
All the bickering aside, the RTAK is a great knife and I've abused the hell out of mine without any problems. A lot of people mention the handle being a problem. But handle design is ALWAYS hit or miss. No one knife can feel good to every user. Maybe I have similarly shaped and sized hands as the designer *shrug*, but the RTAK is one of the more comfortable knvies in the hand that I own (and I don't have overly large hands).

I've been wanting a D2 RAT-7 for a long time, but the RAT-3 will be my next knife purchase. I've been looking for a small fixed blade (under four inches) for a long time. It's come down to the RAT-3 and the Ranger Little Bird, but I like the blade shape of the RAT-3 better for my purposes.
 
collecter said:
I don't understand how you guys can recommend this knife without qualifying the handle.

I ordered one, got it in the mail, held it or tried to, then put it back in the package and mailed it back the next day. The handle just didn't let me get a positive enough grip on it and if it doesn't have that, it's not worth carrying or using. That knife needs to be handled before buying. It may fit somebody but I'd be suprised if anybody said "wow, feels perfect".

So many reviews are only someones opinion and in most cases they don't know any better so their recommendation is not valid, unless you consider "I recommend this knife because I have one" as valid.

I don't know Cliff Stamp from a hole in the ground but I find his reviews consistently more accurate and impartial than any others I've read. So Cliff, keep it up!

Collecter
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Oh I guess someone like me who uses knives like this in 3rd world countries during wartime, and who depends on a product in life threatening situations is unqualified to say that it is a good product. Hey Collector, go collect. I am going to go "Use" and enjoy mine. I believe your comment is just as opinionated as anyones else, and if you pulled your head out of Cliff's rear for a minute you would see that he probably has just as much tactical experience as a boy scout. He knows knives like I said, but he doesn't always know the good ones. You also said you don't understand how we can recommend the knife without qualifying the handle? Then how can Cliff not recommend the knife without even touching it? Nice try, play again. :rolleyes:
 
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