Open Bid knives?

[severedthumbs]

How do you guys feel about makers selling their knives via open bid? I have seen many makers do this and the knife typically sells for substantially higher than the makers normal asking price. I prefer the maker to just post the knife with a set price and avoid all the fan boy heroisim, but thats just my opinion. So how do you guys feel about the ethics of this?

 

[Marcel54]

I don't think there is any ethics involved with open bid knives. Selling knives is what a maker does otherwise he wouldn't have a livelyhood. So for him it is one of his tools to sell his knives. From the buyers point of view it is an opportunity to buy a knife from a maker that is in high demand. So it is just an open market with supply and demand. In an open market the buyer decides how much he wants to spend and someone with deep pockets is (sometimes) willing to pay a premium. Good for the maker!!!

Marcel

 

[sheathmaker]

Nice explanation, Marcel It's ethical, capitalistic,...the AMERICAN way..... and way beyond hope and change. Good for any maker who has the cajones to do it.

Paul

 

[Kevin Jones]

I agree. Ethics doesn't enter the picture.
It's just another way some makers choose to sell knives and collectors choose to buy them.
Good for the makers who have a large enough following and popularity for their knives to go this route.

 

[severedthumbs]

The American way.....exactly why our economy is in such trouble today.

I would like to hear Les' opinion on this.

 

[Kevin Jones]

The American way.....exactly why our economy is in such trouble today.

I would like to hear Les' opinion on this.

Obviously, you see something horribly wrong with this process.
Would you share with us what that is and it's part in ruining our economy?

Though it's not a process I participate in, I fail to see an issue with makers selling and buyers purchasing knives in a manner they are both comfortable with.

 

[jjtjr]

A maker, as well as a collector or purveyor can sell his knife any way that he wants to. There are many makers who sell knives on eBay through open bid. They don't always sell for more than the normal price, sometime less.

It's called an auction. They have been around a long time.

 

[betzner]

At the AKI, most knives have set prices in the catalog. I knew this, but since this year was my first AKI, I didn't realize that bid-ups and open bidding occurred there. They are pretty much the same thing, but the bid-up just establishes the base.

I don't think a maker can succeed with open bidding unless he or she has reached the very pinnacle of success - but at such a point, the maker dictates the rules of play if he or she so wishes.

There's a 14" slim folder on page 52 of Darom's "Great Collections" by Jurgen Steinau that is very similar to one that sold at open bid for $20,000 Saturday, though this year's was 12" long with less colored bakelite and less intricate inlay.

In Jurgen's case, he had three knives. One had an opener of $6500 with bid-up, not sure what it went for. There was another at a fixed price of $9500 - the one mentioned in my earlier thread. And the third was this slim folder that went for $20,000.

So Jurgen's way of handling his AKI knives allowed him to capture the upside on two out of his three knives, while the fixed price knife (at $9500) yielded one lucky SOB (me) a similar upside, when selling it.

What's wrong with this? Nothing. But show me a maker who can get open bidding on all knives? Never seen one who could. It's usually the collector who gets all of the upside, with the maker getting none - so I see nothing wrong at all with the practice.

I think the AKI is a great example of how both fixed price and open bid pricing can work side by side. But if a maker can get open bidding on all his knives, go for it.

EDIT: I really couldn't tell precisely what had been said in the thread opener, so I took the thread starter off of my ignore list long enough so I could respond, sure glad I did.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

How do you guys feel about makers selling their knives via open bid?

Nothing wrong with it at all. I mean if collectors and buyers can buy something in a lottery and turn around and "flip it " for a hefty profit , why can't the maker do it every once in awhile ?

The ones it seems to annoy are the flippers and some dealers. The collectors don't seem to have an issue with it or they wouldn't participate in the bid up.

Nothing unethical about it at all in my eyes.

 

[Kevin Wilkins]

I'm glad to hear Jürgen did well at the show, he works tremendously hard and is one of the nicest, most generous people I know. And next time I drop round his house for coffee, I will be expecting some CAKE too!

 

[SShepherd]

The American way.....exactly why our economy is in such trouble today.

I would like to hear Les' opinion on this.

pretty simple...the maker has the right to sell it either from an order, auction, or from existing inventory-- thats how business is done.

to make a comment like that, you obviously have no clue about why the economy is in difficult times.

 

[RogerP]

I don't think there is any ethics involved with open bid knives.

I think you are absolutely right.

Roger

 

[commodorewheeler]

Personally, I don't mind seeing that at all, especially if it's a maker who normally sells things for a set price and does an occasional open bid. Makers should be able to reap the benefits of a strong secondary market once in a while, I feel their hard work deserves that.

 

[Boggs]

Open bids are fantastic..it gives me a way to purchase a knife that I might not normal be able to secure..plus who wants to wait on a list for 12,24 months or longer, I certainly prefer it offer any sort of closed bidding..then we can all either receive the acalades or congratulate the winner over the good fight. But I do believe your choice of using the word "ethics" is incorrect at least in this post because it leads you believe someone is stealing or doing something behind your back.."businses practice" would of been more appropriate, and this of course is the makers decision.
Though look at the above signature line or aviatars..I don't see knives or sheaths they're all pieces of art...and art always goes to the highest bidder........

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Severed.

The old marketing axiom goes:

What is something worth?

What someone will pay for it.

Collectors used to complain that too many makers sold out before the show opened.

So makers brought the knives into the show and sold them there.

Then collectors used to complain that they didn't have a chance to get one of the knives as people would buy multiples. Or the maker only brought 3 knives and they were 4th in line.

So the makers started having drawings.

Now the complaint seems to be the "bid up" knife. Allowing anyone (if they have enough money) are able to get the knife...purely because they have more money.

Severed, someone getting more money for what something is worth is not reason for the problems with the economy today.

Reminds me of a guy who used to play poker with our group. He was always complaining that the bets came to quickly and/or for too much money. He wasn't given a chance to see all the cards before he bet. He no longer plays with us.

If a maker has established their relationship to the point where there are people willing to pay above list for a special knife. Then that maker is entitled to be paid whatever that price may be.

Ultimately the person taking the risk is the buyer. As there is probably a better than average chance they will get their money back out of the knife should they choose to sell it. As long as the buyer is good with that...it's their money. They can do what they want with it.

 

[severedthumbs]

Severed, someone getting more money for what something is worth is not reason for the problems with the economy today.

thanks Les for sharing your view.

with the whole american dream/ bad economy thing, I was getting at greed more than anything with that statement. I feel a lot of our problems today are because of greed. But this is off topic of the original intent of the thread.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Severed,

Greed has been around long before capitalism.

Personally, I think what is worse is taking money (by threat of prison and fines) from producers. To fund the lifestyles of those who contribute nothing; but some reason feel entitled to food, a place to live, money for not working (welfare was meant to be a stop gap measure...not a life style). This includes "Corporate Welfare" as well.

Perhaps that could be called the "Greed of Entitlement"

Ok, back on topic.

 

[ddd]

A well known fact:

Many of the makers who are using the OPEN BID system to sell
their knives used to sell their knives till recently at their "regular"
price only to have many of the buyers turn around and resell them
again for a 100% profit.

This must have been quite an annoying event even for the nicest
knifemaker among those with a waiting list of several years
and a great demand for their art.

Since they were not going to up their beginning price drastically
they decided to use the OPEN BID system to get for their work
what a collector would pay without most of it going to
several speculants on the way to its final home...

These world-class knifemakers might have thought of this
earlier if they were not such honest and humble people....

On Saturday, at the AKI, Michael Walker's tiny Zipper brought
$44,000. All of it went to Michael and not to 2-3 intermediate
greedy people who were there only to make a quick profit...

So was the case with one of Wolfgang Loerchner's folders
that sold for (Steven correct me if I am wrong) for $20,000...

And with Jurgen Steinau's knives even though one of them,
that was sold at a fixed price, was immediately re-sold for a
handsome profit...

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

 

[severedthumbs]

this is good stuff ddd. I wouldn't mind seeing all the money in the makers pockets. I would love to see makers able to sell their wares for $2000 if that's what people are flipping them at. But I think historically makers that raise their prices to after market levels tend to not do so well after the price increase. Les knows about this way better than I and I hope he would correct me here if I am wrong.

Is the open bid method actually a way to raise prices with out actually doing so?

 

[ddd]

"Greed of Entitlement".

I liked that Les!!

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)