Open Bid knives?

A well known fact:

And with Jurgen Steinau's knives even though one of them,
that was sold at a fixed price, was immediately re-sold for a
handsome profit...

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

The first and only time I have ever flipped a knife. My ticket was not deposited into his box with the intent to do anything but keep it.

But guys were lined up behind me and the bucks got so big I couldn't resist it anymore. Yes, re-sold for a handsome profit. But it paid for a Julie Warenski/Curt Erickson knife that was mine by virtue of the draw. Lady luck was with me Saturday.

Let me just re-iterate, I have never put more than a single entry into any box and never will. So luck it was.

I got rewarded for playing by the rules.

EDIT: Other than the Julie/Curt knives, I only put four tickets into boxes, and the Steinau was one
 
Well Bob,

First of all it was great meeting you and seeing your smile when you
saw the the sample of back cover of " The World of Art Knives"...

You also got what you wanted and another really nice collector got
what he wanted... Sounds good to me.... :)

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)
 
Hi Bob,

what a collector would pay without most of it going to
several speculants on the way to its final home...

For a minute I thought David was referring to dealers.

Obviously he was referring to those "greedy speculants"....like you. :D

BTW, the person who bought the knife from you. I take it he did so...because you held a gun to his head! LOL

You covered you show expenses and got a knife you wanted! No need to apologize for that.

Imagine how many more people would attend shows if they had the chance to do that!
 
David - It was really great meeting you and thanks for the copy of that back cover. Love it! I plan on showing a few people that back flap!

Les - I find almost everything said in this thread to be valid because it is mostly about the maker getting his part of the cake. Thanks for your comments, though I was certainly not apologizing for my actions, LOL!!

I always wanted a Steinau, but when $9500 converts to $15,500 so quickly - well, now you know what that "Knife with Big Hook" cost someone!
 
Is the open bid method actually a way to raise prices with out actually doing so?

I don't think so, because the majority of makers who do open bids still sell the majority of their knives at set prices well below the secondary market value of those knives. I think it's more a way for the makers to get an occasional piece of the secondary market pie, and I think it's great for the makers and for collectors with money but not time.
 
From what I have seen.........most of the knives put out for open bid are either very rare or extraordinary pieces that are not just another knife in the makers lineup.

These should bring a nicer price, irregardless of how they are sold.
 
I have seen many makers do this and the knife typically sells for substantially higher than the makers normal asking price.
Then the seller was charging too low of a "normal" asking price
Right?


350px-economic-surplusessvg.png

English Auctions allow the seller to extract all consumer surplus
You see the pink shaded area?
That is what the seller wants to extract from you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_surplus

The English auction, as a rule for allocating a single object, has been studied extensively.
It is known to be an efficient (with respect to revenue or consumer surplus)
incentive mechanism
under various assumptions. Thus, in the single unit case, the equilibrium
behavior in the English auction extracts the necessary preference information and
leads to "optimal" allocations
(see, for example, Milgrom [9]). When all agents know their
valuations (i.e., in the private values case), truthfully revealing one's demand is a dominant
strategy. Moreover, the equilibrium, when all agents use their dominant strategies,
results in a Walrasian allocation and the revenue collected is the value of the object at the
smallest Walrasian price.
http://www.princeton.edu/~fgul/english.pdf

Classical microeconomic theory uses the notion of consumer surplus as the welfare measure that
quantifies benefits to a consumer from an exchange. Alfred Marshall (1936) defined consumer surplus as
“the excess of the price which he (a consumer) would be willing to pay rather than go without the thing,
over that which he actually does pay…” It is also traditional to visualize consumer surplus as the roughly
triangular area lying under a downward sloping demand curve and above the rectangle that represents
actual money expenditure
. Yet, despite its established theoretical standing, empirical studies of consumer
surplus levels are not widely observed in the literature. Imagine a traditional retailer using the posted
price selling format asking a consumer checking out, “By the way, how much were you really willing to
pay for this item?
”
http://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/faculty/wjank/consumerSurplusOnlineAuctions.pdf

There is nothing unethical about TRYING to figure out what is the MOST your customer is WILLING to pay for...........
***********************************************
When I was at the Santa Barbara knife show I saw a knife that was up for bids
There was simply a sheet of paper where you put the price you are willing to play

MY 1st thought was========>
That is BRILLIANT!!
It allows the seller to extract all consumer surplus

My 2nd thought====>
How could people collude (cheat)?
Collusion is always a problem in auctions
Usually has to do with "signalling" some how, some way, the price you bid
There was collusion for the "G3 spectrum auctions" in Europe, for example
The "players" signalled other players to the price they bid
Had to do with the NUMBERS
bid
The funny part is they picked some of the TOP ECONOMISTS in the field of game theory to design the "game" (Think of the guy from A Beautiful Mind)
And they failed:eek:

My 3rd thought===>
How does it work at the END of the auction?
Are elbows with pencils being thrown to get in the last bid on the piece of paper?

So why don't ALL sellers use the English Style Auction you ask?
Costs
It costs a lot of time (and money) to run an auction for every item
That is why I think the sellers usually only do it on their highly demanded knives
(the ones you NORMALLY have to wait a year for=HIGH demand)
And some buyers want to buy something NOW
They don't want to have to WAIT 4 hours until the auction ends
*****************************************************
It turns out that the consumer actually saves money on EBAY auctions
We show that these benefits are significant, amounting
conservatively in the range of $7.05 billion for the year 2003 alone. The 2005 dataset that we collected for
the robustness analysis indicates that the surplus level has grown from a median of $4 per auction to
$4.83 and from a total estimate of $7.05 billion to $8.39 billion
What that means is a bidder who was willing to pay 14 bucks for an item
On avg. only paid $9.17.....................

BTW...the EBAY proxy bidding style of auction is a form of the Vickery Auction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickrey_auction
 
From what I have seen.........most of the knives put out for open bid are either very rare or extraordinary pieces that are not just another knife in the makers lineup.

These should bring a nicer price, irregardless of how they are sold.



good point here and it could also be a way to sell the knife when the maker isnt sure where to price the rare/ extraordinary knife.

Tom do you ever have open bid auctions on your knives?
 
Trend, thanks for the theoretical explanation.

It reminded me of university (college) and it has been a while (about 30 years since university) that I was confronted with Leon Walras et al again. Now I hope that it will take another 30 years before it will happen again;)

Marcel
 
Trend, thanks for the theoretical explanation.

It reminded me of university (college) and it has been a while (about 30 years since university) that I was confronted with Leon Walras et al again. Now I hope that it will take another 30 years before it will happen again;)

Marcel



While it has only been 3 years for me, my sentiment is the same!:D
 
From what I have seen.........most of the knives put out for open bid are either very rare or extraordinary pieces that are not just another knife in the makers lineup.

These should bring a nicer price, irregardless of how they are sold.

Yes Tom, this was exactly the case with the open bid knives at
last weekend's amazing AKI in San Diego.

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)
 
Les should read Ayn Rand - and not just the novels; check out "Capitalism - the unknown ideal".

I'm all for the maker to capture the surplus. The one this to keep in mind though is that a smart maker will keep something for the little guys, to cultivate is following.
 
Doug, I've seen Tom do open bid auctions on special pieces at the Plaza Cutlery evening show before. I've also heard that he has done open bid at the Tactical Invitational.



very good, thanks for the info Ken.

was one the Dr. Death timascus 6K flipper collab between him and Lee?
 
Hi Joss,

I read that in Grad School. Ayn's view of capitalism is that of the laissez-faire type.

Complete separation of economics and the government. Which no longer exists in the US.

Tough to do when the government disrupts the natural progression of capitalism (i.e. General Motors going bankrupt, etc.) with bail outs. Knowing full well the principal let alone the interest will never be paid back.

There is a reason Ayn Rands book "Atlas Shrugged" is gaining in popularity again.
 
Les should read Ayn Rand - and not just the novels; check out "Capitalism - the unknown ideal".

I'm all for the maker to capture the surplus. The one this to keep in mind though is that a smart maker will keep something for the little guys, to cultivate is following.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
very good, thanks for the info Ken.

was one the Dr. Death timascus 6K flipper collab between him and Lee?

the blade was CPM154. yes, it's collab of Tom and Lee; I don't think it's a bid piece. This's from last year bid (if I am not mistaken, plaza cutlery).

original.jpg
 
very good, thanks for the info Ken.

was one the Dr. Death timascus 6K flipper collab between him and Lee?

Doug, I'm pretty sure the knife you are referring to was not a bid piece. I do remember that there was a Timascus Dr. Death that was open bid at the Plaza Show, but it was not a flipper.
 
Back
Top