Opinion on CPM 3v

Ed, you might want to show the good folks that bend test pic you have on your website. It speaks volumes. One of the parameters not mentioned in the data sheets is 3V's remarkable capacity to flex, even at Rc60. The Charpy Notch test to measure impact toughness does not really take that into account, so the steel is even tougher in a knife blade than the numbers suggest.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
I had one of Cliff's knives, made by Ed Schott and I think made of 3V. Toughness was pretty impressive. Due to making the classic error of not checking my backstop, I ended up doing some full power chops into a small concrete block (don't ask). The edge indented heavily but didn't chip -- when I steeled it back down, it finally chipped out. Any other steel I tried this on chipped out badly, immediately. My Cold Steel SRK, which I thinned down but still has a much thicker edge than the 3V knife, chipped badly right off the bat.

Obviously, chopping into concrete is abuse and not use, and I did the entire "test" by accident, so don't be in too much of a rush to draw conclusions. But I'm pretty impressed that a knife with such an outrageously thin edge could actually handle a few pops without chipping.

Joe
 
In my opini9on, CPM3V is a fantastic steel. I've made about 20 blades from it so far, and, it is extremely tough at Rc 58-60. It is a bit of a dickens to finish-considerably more difficult than A2, and does eat more belts than A2, D2, BG42 or CPM440V. It's about even with 420V on belt wear, although it's a pretty subjective thing.

Surprisingly, it seems fairly rust resistant, surprisingly so given the low Chromium content (just slightly higher than A2 at 5.25%). What we may be seeing is more free chromium due to the vanadium tying up the carbon-this may result in corrosion resistance similar to D2, which has more Chromium. more carbon and less Vanadium, if memory serves.

Anyway, I am impressed with the steel, and, having tried them all, it takes a lot to impress me. I am still searching for the best way to sharpen the 3V. I still cannot get it as sharp as the A2, but, the edge is tougher.

Rj Martin
 
I have to agree with RJ on this one. am building fighters out of it. I love it. The specs say that the impact resistance apoaches S7 .. Jackhammer tips are S7..
I have had great results with this steel.
Tip twisting is fun .. throwing not a problem.

Chopped a few bricks.. minimal damage.
hard wood and digging no problem .

Now days a Fighter has to be a chopper,
digger, wire cutter, with this crowd.
There purpose is one use! One time most often. It does that well also..:]
I made the protos from 52100 . The 3v hold an edge about the same as the diff tempered 52100 IMHO.


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
RJ indicated that he couldn't get 3v as sharp as A2. How do other people rate 3v sharpenability? Can you make a tactical straight razor out of it?
 
The biggest issue with 3V that I have encountered is how much a knife made out of it costs. I have recently gotten quotes from a couple different knife makers, and they were almost twice what the same blade would cost out of A-2. We are not talking an extra $50 or $100 dollars here. I went with A-2.

3V may be the best, but it may not be the best value.

 
Steve,
Who have you gotten quotes from? I didn't find that at all.

I am glad to hear about its rust resistance because I am the Rust Queen. I dont know why but the stuff seems to find me. As some people are prone to gain those extra pounds, my blades seem to be prone to rust. I even had to replace a gun barrel because of rust spots. So needless to say rust is a pet peeve of mine. So far my CPM 3V blade has stood up well despite my lack of TLC and there hasn't formed one speck.

I have to add that my dagger isn't as hair popping sharp as some of the blades I have seen, including yours RJ's. But, it is still scary sharp and passed the "Cotton duck" test. The material is an absolute bitch to cut and only something real sharp can cut it straight and cut it so it wont fray much.

Cliff,
Did you get those pieces I sent you yet?
 
3V is definitely not easy to sharpen. I'm beginning to understand that this steel makes it's own rules, and while I can get it sharp, it is certainly not the same easy process as A2 or ATS-34.

I also think RJ is right about the corrosion resistance. Since 3V has only 0.8% Carbon and almost half of that is tied up by the Vanadium, there is precious little left for the Chrome and Iron. The result of more free Chrome (better rust resistance) and less Iron Carbide (less brittleness). Win/win.

Steve, on your price issues, I understand your concern. The problem is simply one of time. It takes me at least twice as long to make a 3V blade as it does with any other steel I use. Everything in the grinding and finishing process is tougher and uses more belts. And as the blades get bigger the differences in time are magnified. I am just now finishing a 22" 3V sword, and I can tell you it has almost worn me out.

Is it worth it? Well, there is some value in the knowledge that the other guy's sword is going to break before yours does. Is it critical? Only if the other guy has a 3V sword. In a 5-6" blade I don't think it matters. Somewhere around 8-9" it may begin to matter. Around 12" or more, CPM-3V is a significant tactical advantage. That my opinion only, and more 3V swords are in the plans.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
...and I suppose swords are a special case all the way round. The extra effort required to grind a sword out of 3V is muliplied by the fact that there is so much more to grind. I did see a 3V Jerry Fisk fighter on Les Robertson's sight today for six or seven hundred dollars, so maybe the cost isn't that much of an issue with smaller blades. I am sure a Fisk fighter costs near that whatever it is made out of.

So maybe I shouldn't have been such a cheapskate, eh Jerry?
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But I'll bet the A-2 sword will be a great blade.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 06-16-2000).]
 
Cheap? Steve, that sword isn't cheap! Just for the record, Gaucho in his testing used an A2 Espada to cut through 3" of cow leg bone. That is very hard bone, and the edge didn't roll, so there is nothing to apologize for in A2. It is very tough steel.

What I think distinguishes CPM-3V from others is its capacity to achieve that same strength in a thinner, lighter and better balanced blade. And that in turn represents some of the additional cost, because it is technically more demanding to achieve. This steel pushes me to the edge of my envelope, and that's good.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Steve,
Ed is making me my 18" CPM 3V short sword for $350, my 4 1/2" dagger was $190. My 3 1/2" camp knife from Ed in CPM3V cost $100. Considering the prices I have heard, I'm one happy camper. BTW, from what I have learned many factors consider how much a maker will charge for his work. All have varying amounts of overhead. Some do more shows and this accounts for larger overhead. Some have fancier websites, professional photos taken etc, etc. Big name makers have more overhead while lesser known makers usually have less overhead and can afford to come in cheaper with their prices. I know that Ed has little overhead and before the forums he primarily sold within his home State only. Also it depends on a guy's waiting list. If the maker is in demand and he has a long waiting list then he can charge whatever he wishes. And like Jerry added it also depends on the style and the work involved. My sword will not be ground real thin. BTW Ed, have you got a photo of one floating around?

[This message has been edited by Donna Barnas (edited 06-16-2000).]
 
Speaking towards the sharpenablility of the CMP3V, it becomes RAZOR sharp, the WhiteWinger folder that I have took an exceptional edge. One of those kinds of edge where you sort of tree top cut the hair on your arm, that sharp. Now it didn't arrive that sharp, had to take it to my Norton Tri-Hones to set the bevel and then to the Spyderco three sets of flat stones to take it to this level. So far I'm very happy/excited/overjoyed, well those might be overdoing it, but happy works for me....
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I have been carrying it to work since getting it, opening boxes, cutting forms, paper, plastic ty-wraps, so I still have a ways to go before I can tell or evaluate the holdability of this steel, but I don't expect to be let down!

G2

By the way, I'm in the process of making a short sword out of A2, 20" blade, 8" handle that I plan on sending out to Paul Bos to heat treat to RC of 58 for me. But I would be neater to make it out of 3V, maybe later!


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"The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions!"
Take the time to read your Bible Now, don't be left behind...

G2 LeatherWorks
 
As for 3V and sharpeness, you have to put that comment into perspective. While I have not as of yet had the pleasure of using one of R.J.'s knives I have echanged many emails with him and know that he is simply very discriminating about edge finish.

I can sharpen 3V (from Ed Schott) to a polish that high that I can push shave with it and not irritate my skin. At this point it will also push easily through paper and require little or no slicing movement to start the cut. It will also push through light sewing thread at about 125 +/- 25 g of force.

It needs to be clarified that the cutting ability of 3V should be much higher than A2 simply because of the additional strength and toughness. This assumes that as Jerry Hossom has indicated that the maker takes advantage of these abilities geometry wise.

Donna no sign of it yet.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 06-17-2000).]
 
Fine people,

No, I am not a metallurgist(sp??) nor am I a professional knife reviewer(all you have to do is read one of my insane so-called reviews and you'll wholeheartedly agree), however, I do believe that I am a professional knife buying CONSUMER, so therefore I feel semi-entitled to give my opinion, no matter how insignificant. And it's this:

Jerry Hossom makes one HECK of a sharp knife in CPM-3V!!!!!!! How sharp? I am the proud owner of knives made by Bud Nealy, Pat Crawford, Jerry Busse, Newt Livesay, Ernest Emerson, Wayne Clark, and Al Polkowski...all extremely fine gentlemen, but my HOSSOM MILLENNIUM BLACK FIGHTER, IN CPM-3V, is the sharpest out of all of them. I'll be honest and admit that it's not by a lot, especially with my Crawford, Nealy and Polkowski, but it's STILL the sharpest. Not only that, but I accidentally slashed at a steel pole full power about five or six times with my Hossom(don't ask; all I will say is that I thought the stick I was slashing was made out of wood) and not only did the edge not roll or chip, but it still sharper than my Gillette razor after blowing compressed air into it!*

Dudes and babes, we're talking EXTREME SHARPNESS AND TOUGHNESS here...

In the immortal words of that weird looking detective in that weird looking movie by what's his name: "Don't F-U-C-* with C-P-M-3-V!!"

*I really tried to think of a great metaphor, but I couldn't. Sorry.
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[This message has been edited by MrG (edited 06-18-2000).]
 
Mr. G,
You have knives made by everyone except a couple who are reputed to make the sharpest knives on the Custom market, i.e. Jame's Piorek and R.J.Martin. The grapevine also has it that many are purchasing Ray Kirk's "lil blue" neck knife because of the reputed sharpness of this little blade. I happened t purchase one myself.

R.J. Martin at the moment has such a long waiting list that his web site will tell you that he is not taking any new orders at this time. R.J. is one of these fortunate makers who can name whatever price he likes on his blades because they are in such demand. Anytime one of his knives come onto the For Sale board they are dont last a day. R.J.'s knives are also known for their sharpness and I have seen his knives in "shaving" condition. If R.J. comes on here and says that he cannot get it as sharp as A2 then you can take that to the bank.

My CPM 3V blade isn't as sharp as the blades I mentioned above, but this does'nt mean that it is still not scarry sharp.

If Jerry's knives will outshave one of RJ's non CPM 3V blades and one of James Pioreks, if it will outshave my Raker neck knife then this is something I will want to see. Is Jerry going to be at this year's New York City Blade show?

Darrel,
That's a great summary you wrote about the steel's properties in your post. I dont think anyone could have said it better.

 
Donna,

What a coinci-dinky!! I also happen to have a couple of Piorek's knives on order, and RJ Martin's as well. Patience is a virtue, my momma always says.
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However, I do happen to be the proud owner of a JSP Credit Card Blade, which is A2, and it's also as sharp as hell!!

For me, sharp is when you slash medium power at a pair of brand spanking new blue jeans(No, not a $55 pair of Levi's 501s, but a pair of those stiff ass flea market baggy jeans that'll only set ya back $12 to $15 a pair) packed full of wet newspaper with my wife's semi-frozen chicken in the middle, and the blade goes clear through. Not halfway through, but clear through. And then, I'll slash happily at this dummy until I'm covered with salmonella producing poultry from head to toe. Let me tell you, this disgusting exercise takes a LOT of frustration and stress out!!

And if the knife that I'm holding in my slick,chicken-gut encrusted hand still shaves the hair off of my arm, and I mean shave, not tear or pull, THEN I consider that knife to be "sharper than hell".

Like I said, my Hossom Millennium Black in CPM-3V is sharper than my other knives. By how much? Well, IMHO, it's a tad sharper than my Crawford KFF, slightly sharper than my Polkowski Scorpion, a bit sharper than my Nealy Pesh Kabz in M2, and significantly sharper than my Busse Mean Street in A2, but the edge is thinner. And, it's sharper than my JSP CCB. IOW, it's the sharpest knife that I own. Don't believe me?? I'm crazy/insane/nuts enough to send you my baby, the Hossom Millennium Black with the last piece of rag micarta on Earth, so you can shave your arm hairs to your hearts content!! www.hossom.com/gallery/img30.jpg Let me know Donna...
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[This message has been edited by MrG (edited 06-18-2000).]
 
Razor-sharp knives have a few levels.

#1 Scrapes hair.

#2 Shaves clean.

#3 Pops hair. Very aggressive.

A knife that is, "Razor Sharp" will do one of these three, and take note, a knife that is "a lot less" than #1 will take you to the bone too, just a little more pressure. When flesh collides, that is a lot of pressure.

The reason you want something as sharp as #1, at the very least is, denim and leather. Street armor. I have pissed lots of people off by saying the following, "This is not the Philipines..." If you live in S. California, Arizona, Texas, Florida, etc., that is a warmer climate and this is not as crucial...where people wear heavier clothing, it is a really big issue and the way you use the blade has to be a little more supercharged as well.

What has this got to do with anything? I don't understand "outshave." The knife will either shave or it will not shave. If it shaves, it is generally in one of the three categories above. Scrapes, shaves clean, pops hair. Obviously, living in the land of the leather and denim jacket, I prefer #3 whenever possible.

I do own or have owned knives by Nealy, Piorek, Martin, Emerson, and even Jerry Hossom, SURPRISE! SURPRISE! None of them "outshaves" the other, they all shave.

I had a miniscule little R.J. Martin Kozuka I obtained from Mitchell Lake, chisel ground, the grip was a bit small for me, so I did sell or trade it. The edge was very impressive...very impressive, it would go through denim and then through heavy furniture grade foam padding with ease.

Which brings us to something else entirely.

Piorek sharpens a flat ground blade at about 12 degrees, and incredibly fine edge. That is on the double/"V"/Flat Grind, whatever we want to call it "today." On the chisels, he would do that at 24 I believe. I am not a "Geometry Head," but I know enough to know what works for me, because I test them....not usually chopping wood and stuff like that either.

What kind of grind are we talking about? Chisel? Emerson, Martin and Piorek all have incredibly aggressive, chisel ground knives...

Flat ground? Piorek does an incredibly aggressive, fine flat grind.

Bud Nealy's hollow grind on the Pesh Kabz is deep and they slash and thrust very well. Bud's Y2K has a breathtaking edge, very deeply hollow ground on one side and chisel on the other...like a Sushi Knife. Incredible edge.

Jerry's hollow grinds are radical. People often referred to Nealy's Pesh Kabz as being almost a Fuller...that is deep folks... Jerry, I think, had the folks at Crucible befuddled when they were handling his knives.

...and the CPM3V would shave too. I have the "Knifer's Mange" to prove it."

So, it is not just what the steel is, it is the grind, etc., that is going to decide the "Real Deal."

All the Maker's I mentioned are incredibly talented Craftsmen...and they can all make knives that shave.
 
As an afterthought...I believe a knife under 12 inches should at least shave cleanly, this is critical.

Over that, you have a lot of play because of shearing power, there is more edge to run through the wound.

If you have a folder you carry for defensive purposes, it better damned well shave, don't use it for anything else, ever. Same goes for Neck Knives...they are small and need to pack all the wallop they can get.
 
I've been trying to stay out of this, but I just can't. I dont really care if a knife shaves. The knives that I make, which are being discussed here, are tactical knives. They are designed to perform proficiently in all aspects of the tactical environment, none of which are shaving.

MrG's assault on a steel bar is far more meaningful to me than how hair popping sharp that blade might have been. I don't recommend banging my blades against steel posts, but edge to edge impacts are a real consequence of blade combat, and the edge was designed to tolerate that event. Indeed, it is one of the best reasons to use CPM-3V in a tactical blade. It is incredibly tough. That the edge didn't roll tells me what I wanted to know. That the edge still shaved was irrelevant to the tactical goal. Nice to know, but that is hardly the sole determinant of sound blade design.

I can take a piece of junk steel, put a 12 degree bevel on it and pop the hairs off a mouse's butt at 20 paces, but it will not be a useful tactical edge. I might be able to do that with CPM-3V and have it survive a solid impact, but why bother? Why take the chance that it won't? I'm not trying to win awards for sharpness. I'm trying to build good fighting knives with sound durable edges. The very last detail I attend to in shaping the edge on one of my blades is the final bevel. When I put an edge on a blade, there are about 6 or 7 steps that precede that last little bit.

Depending on the size of the knife and the general geometry of the blade, the geometry of the edge is shaped accordingly. The edges on small fighter, large fighter, bowies and swords are different. They have different needs, encounter different forces, move at different velocities, and must achieve different things in real use. It would be absolutely silly to put a fine shaving edge on some of these.

Different makers have different priorities and design objectives, and differing ways of achieving their ends. None are right, none are wrong, they are just different. The only thing I worry about when I put an edge on one of my knives is achieving my own goals, to make a good, serviceable, and rugged fighting knife in the best way I know how. I don't care how other makers do it, just as I am sure they are unconcerned with my methods and designs. If someone else's knife is sharper than one of mine, that's great. Mine is as sharp as I wanted it to be, and that is really all I care about.

This talk about whose knife shaves best is nonsense. I'm sorry of I've offended anyone, but I don't intend to get in a pissing contest over something I don't think is important. Enough said.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
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