Opinion on CPM 3v

Jerry,

Believe it or not, some of us buy knives to use! There are some who care about shaving off their arm hairs and others who care how a knife preforms during daily use. Glad to see you care about how the steel will be used!

As far as:

"I can take a piece of junk steel, put a 12 degree bevel on it and pop the hairs off a mouse's butt at 20 paces..."

Did you learn that while visiting Tom in Hawaii?

Michael

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He who has smelt the smoke is never free again...
 
Jerry,
Brilliantly worded! What you said was explained to me by Ed (in fewer words) when he made me my dagger. I really like the way you elaborated on the principle.

Mr.G,
When I purchase a knife from a knifemaker, I expect them to have run the gamut of tests and to know thier skill and their trade. On new blue jeans, cotton duck varies depending on the weave. I use artist's canvas and the weave is very tight, it is also natural and has not been weakened by a die. The stuff cannot be cut unless you have a razor. My dagger cut the stuff clean so that that is good enough for me. You also said you used wet newspaper, well isn't the paper stronger when it has dried and hardened? Or is this a typo here?

Don,
According to the US Justice Dept. the no. 1 edged weapon used is homicides is a screwdriver and the second is a kitchen knife. Niether of which is very sharp. In one story I heard from someone out of Riker's he told me about an inmate who was killed with a pencil stuck through his eye.

Being the tactically minded individuals that we are, we are into the science of what we do. We are going to use the best blades to the best of our knowledge.

While my Raker is the sharpest knife I own, it is a 2 1/2 inch neck knife. While it is a great knife which will no doubt cut the hell out of someone, I would'nt rely on it for strength, but that is not the purpose of that little knife. This all goes back to what Jerry said.

My pet peeve, what I most look for in a fighting knife is a knife that wont get hung up on bone. The last thing I need in a self defense situation is to have my knife break or get stuck or hung up on someone's bone. I have heard of this happening with 01, if you remember Ghostsix's story about his Randal no. 1 getting stuck in the enemies chest and he was not able to pull the knife out with both hands and he had lost his gun at this point as well, so weaponless he ran.

There was a murder where the attacker used a hatchet and planted it in his victim's head and the person who found the body (the husband, found the body, that of his wife) tried to remove the hatchet with both hands and was unable to. That is an extreme example here. And if you think of it, how the hell would a hatchet get stuck in the skull bone?

The point is my knife getting stuck in bone is my pet peeve and I discussed this over and over with Ed, so much so that I am sure he was hearing my demands in his sleep. This is why CPM 3V appealed to me so much, because of its strength. So as I understood it, my knife would be scarry sharp with a bit of sharpness sacraficed for strength. Tell me Don, if you were in leather would you want to be on the other end of my CPM 3V dagger?



[This message has been edited by Donna Barnas (edited 06-19-2000).]
 
For the record, I do not want to be on the receiving end of anyone's dagger, screwdriver or aything else capable of screwing me up, down or sideways.

If Harley Davidson Biker Leather was not so damned hot...I'd be wearing it.

On the subject of screwdriver/knife/street armor... The screwdriver has run for quite a few years as the #1 or #2 weapon in the Edged Weapon Category...however...

If I have a 6 shot S&W Revolver, I am not going to put 3 rounds in it. It is half a weapon.

If I have a Post Ban Glock magazine that only holds 10 rounds, 10 are going in it, not 5.

If your knife only thrusts well, you have 50% of what you could have. If your knife only cuts well, but it cannot penetrate, same thing. Half a weapon. At that point, if that is where we are at, why not carry the fookin' screwdriver? If someone wants a proven thrusting/killing implement, indeed, the numbers bear that out. Likewise, if thrusting is not your thing, and you are a slasher, same thing.

Stepping back now, I would rather have someone trying to stab me to death than slash me to death. Why? When the thrust comes...it is dedicated...if it is not dedicated, it is a poke...and if it is dedicated and I have a sharp piece of steel in my hand...it is End Game. If you fade back from a thrust, even if it lands, it is a shallow poke, and you have overextended your reach and are easily aced on the spot.

If the guy is flinging around a chunk of steel that is razor sharp, it is much faster and the lines are not so "clean." It is not in-out, in-out, in-out.

Added to which, I do not want to go into the body unless that becomes a necessity before I have done some serious damage to the limbs...he still has his weapons. If anyone has a clue as to what they are doing, and you intend on getting on the inside and play with the torso...they are going to carve you up.
 
The Science and The History

"During the 1920's, the British Government had been conducting investigations into the effectiveness of the bayonet as a weapon of incapacitation. Experience in the Great War (W.W.1) had revealed that, although effective enough when used in a slashing movement, the conventional broad bladed sword/bayonet did not have quite the same devastation when being used in the thrust, which was, after all, the conventional bayonet movement when affixed to the fusil. Medically speaking, the most effective wounds were achieved with spike-bladed weapons, such as the old pattern socket bayonets. These had the capacity of penetrating deeper into the body, and inflicting deep-seated hemorrhaging wounds. It was gory stuff, but the type of research that provided weapons for killing, and ultimately the survival of the bearer. The final conclusion was that when pitted against an adversary, even one garbed in protective clothing, a more lethal blow was likely to be delivered by a spike-bladed weapon.

It was the conclusion of such research that devised a whole series of weapons that were best suited for concealment and direct assassination attacks."

Excerpt from, Fighting Knives by Frederick J. Stephens...Page 108

The research led to the OSS Sleeve Dagger, I have one of them, nice and brutal. Pat Crawford makes 3 sizes of them, he calls them "Devil's Darts." I have 2 of Crawfords in my tiny collection of edged weapons. Mr. Crawford says he patterned it after the OSS Sleeve Dagger...a great heads up. These are deadly little devices that are triangular bladed weapons.

I would love to have one of these with a 6 inch blade and a really good grip. If you are going to thrust, by God, get a thrusting weapon.

 
Jerry :

[shaving edge]

I might be able to do that with CPM-3V and have it survive a solid impact, but why bother?

Beacuase a highly polished edge and bevel face is the most durable in regards to impacts. It also shaves the smoothest. The only exception to this is if you don't actually have the bevels on the edge meet. Of course that is not going to be much of a knife.

This talk about whose knife shaves best is nonsense.

Is the NIB edge of practical importance to me? No because it only lasts a very limited time and all that matters functional wise is the edge I can put on the blade. Of course if you are going to be sending the blade back to be sharpened then this would be of critical importance to you. However NIB sharpness is important to me because of what it represents about the maker. If I get a custom blade that is not sharp then it does not give me a favorable opinion of that maker. Either their QC is very low (how long does it take to check an edge?) or they actually lack the skill. Considering the level of difficultly in the overall process of knifemaking, the fact that they can't do one of the simplest parts well is not a plus in my book.

Cutting ability is being confused with sharpness in this thread. You can easily have a blade very sharp that does not cut very well and the opposite is true as well. Sharpness helps, but it is not the only factor and in many cases it is not even the critical one. It is very important to have an overall low drag profile and this is created by the correct geometry. You want the minimal level of durability necessary as any extra lowers cutting ability. This is the reason that 3V is such a nice blade steel, it doesn't need a heavy cross section to get this durability. Understanding this is the key to getting a high performance blade and there are makers that do understand this quite well and it shows in their knives : Hossom, Schott, Wilson, Busse and Boye to name a few.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 06-19-2000).]
 
Yes, the actual blade geometry does matter Cliff as you pointed out. Drag/resistance is increased with poor geometry, if you have a great blade with low drag through flesh, as Jerry's first ever blade was that he sent to me...the first Millennium...and this knife has went through a few Generations since then and is better than mine is...you can slash through a lot of meat.

That knife was not hair popping sharp, it was however, a radical hollow grind, it offered little drag in the meat...and it was large which meant more edge was presented to the target medium, in this case...meat. More edge to drag through the meat means more cutting.

And I think that clothing and meat should be the emphasis here as we are talking about Hossom, Martin, Emerson and Piorek. Now...if we eliminate collectors with regards to these Makers...what segment of the knife buying population are buying knives from these guys? The Martial Artists are. The people concerned about self-defense are. They are buying them as weapons. And I am happy to see that we are talking about realistic, street stuff...because there is not one maker that I mentioned who would be appreciative of someone taking one of his fighters, one of his weapons and blasting the hell out of it doing something it was never intended to do...I am glad this is elevated.
 
Don :

And I think that clothing and meat should be the emphasis here as we are talking about Hossom, Martin, Emerson and Piorek.

The "tactical" market is not 100% of the high performance user base nor do the "tactical" makers represent 100% of the makers who grind high performance cutting tools. The high durability of 3V makes it an excellent blade steel for many types of utility based knives and there are makers and users interested in it for just that reason.

not one maker that I mentioned who would be appreciative of someone taking one of his fighters, one of his weapons and blasting the hell out of it doing something it was never intended to do...I am glad this is elevated.

There are makers who can understand such use for what it is, and appreciate its value. I know as I have contacted them to make blades for me and have been contacted by them for evaluations purposes and yes included among them are some of the "tactical" makers you mention and some you did not.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 06-19-2000).]
 
Cliff,

Make no mistake, I am not speaking for you at all, nor am I necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm not even speaking for a Maker per se.

I live in a relatively quiet suburb of Baltimore...but I have to go there sometimes as well as a couple other places on the East Coast that are not very nice at all...knives are weapons here. This is one of the "Biggies" in the States as far as Homicide is concerned...I evaluate the worth of a blade in how it cuts, thrusts, takes and not necessarily holds an edge and possibly most important of all, how it feels in the hand, what I can do with it in a pinch that may mean life or death to me or my family.

"Tactical," as you pointed out accurately, does not necessarily mean, "defensive" or "fighter." A SWAT guy is not, however, going to buy a chisel ground fighter or something that is designed for fluid combat and apply that to a window he needs to pry open, door, whatever.

Likewise, a "Tactical" knife may be a "Survival Knife" to some Buyers...if they spend a lot of time in the mountains, etc., still a different game.



[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 06-19-2000).]
 
Nowhere did I say that SHARP wasn't important. The point I was making was simply that shaving is not a very effective measure of a well designed and executed edge.

This really deserves to be a topic by itself. Yes, a small dagger should be razor sharp. Daggers are seldom dueling instruments and should be more edge-refined than a larger knife, which will certainly encounter hard objects and possesses other assets, absent in a dagger. Daggers are not much used to lop off limbs or parry opponents blades. They are handicapped by having little leverage and can achieve velocities only slightly greater than the wielder's hand speed. A larger blade, has more leverage and its point and forward edge velocity will be significantly faster. A small knife will mostly likely get caught in bone; a large knife can cut through it. The dynamics are very different. Sharp is a more critical requirement in a small knife than a larger one. This isn't rocket science, but it certainly is more complex than shaving, which measures only the degree of finish on the final bevel.

In another thread on these forums, Les Robertson discussed the prize winning rope cutter in an ABS competition. I forget how many ropes it cut through, and still shaved, but it was a lot. The first time that same blade was used on a piece of wood, it blew a chunk out of the edge.

Donna, by your criteria, that would have been one of those fantastically sharp shaving edges. By my criteria in the measure of a tactical blade edge, it would have been junk, which is exactly what it ended up being.

Obviously my knives are sharp. I even test them all by shaving, witness that I went to the Blade Show with no arm hair and a bald patch on my left leg, but all that tells me is the quality of the finish on the final bevel. It has only limited meaning in the total context of will that be an effective fighting edge.

Yes it will cut through leather or denim or even the Mona Lisa, but will it cut through harder substances, will it survive almost any impact, and will it serve its user in almost any intended tactical purpose, besides shaving. There are of far greater importance in my mind.

I will not put a 12 degree bevel on CPM-3V or any other steel. In my judgement it is a weak bevel that, while fine as a utility blade, is not capable of sustaining the kind of hard abuse a tactical blade must sustain. That's my philosophy. I believe that, but others may well disagree, and that is why those of you who purchase knives have so many diverse and excellent choices. There are many outstanding knifemakers, most of whom haven't been mentioned on this thread. Each is different in his or her approach to edge geometry. Each has reasons for how they do it. All likely use shaving as a test somewhere in the process. All look for different qualities in how that final result is defined. It's their right to do whatever they think is correct. It is your right to buy whichever you think is best. I really don't think about competing with other knifemakers. I compete only with myself in achieving what I am trying accomplish. That's all.

Now, just for the record. When Gaucho tested my 8-1/2" CPM-3V Millennium Fighter, he gouged chunks out of ratan, cut through duct tape wrapped foam, completely severed a whole leg of lamb diagonally through 2" of bone, and chopped through a double denim wrapped chunk of meat. That was just my second CPM-3V blade and I had yet to learn how to refine the edge as well as I do now. That knife just barely shaved. Go figure.



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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
I was just joking when I asked about a tactical straight razor. I'm really interested in making the ultimate hunting knife. I'm looking to disassemble a horse-sized animal with finess. I want to go very thin and sharp. I'm looking at using A2, 52100 or 3v. I want to know whether I'm sacrificing any significant sharpness with 3v. My standards are very high (I usually use a straight razor as my reference) and so I framed my question from that perspective.
 
While I appreciate the support from everyone, and want not for this forum to turn into a pissing contest, I'd just like to add one thing: I fully expect that CPM3V can be brought up to scary sharp levels, equivalent to what ANYONE would consider sharper than needed. That is why I have invested literally thousands of dollars in it.
The comment I made was that I was not able to sharpen it as sharp as I get A2, not that someone else couldn't make it sharp. Well, I spent 2 years developing the technique I use for A2, and, I'm not surprised that the 3V doesn't get as sharp with the same technique. It's a tougher, more abrasion resistant steel.
I have no doubt that I will ultimately develop an equivalent sharpening method for 3V, and, I will finally be happy with the edge I achieve. I can already scrape, shave and "pop" with 3V-but, the edge I get still lacks what I will refer to as "scary". It is just something I feel when I run my finger down the edge-can't explain more.

So, stop by sometime at a knife show, and, we can talk sharp. It's one of my favorite conversation topics.

RJ Martin
 
First of all, thank-you Larry for starting this post!!!! Once I get past learning how to grind using 440-c and ATS-34, I'll be looking to buy a bit of 3V!!!

Second of all, and I mean not to offend, but please let this turn into a pissing contest! I have gotten about a million times as much info about 3V as I had before this post and a whole boat load and a half full of sharpening info and uses of edges and... oh... I'm rambling because this is my second favorite post (first favorite is the knife revolution one i posted... check it out!) Oh please, keep this going! What do I have to say... who do I have to offend? More info please!

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"Come What May..."
 
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