Opinion: The problem with most Chinese brands

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Wunderbar said:
I can't do china made knives. I've tried and tried. For me it's nostalgia. When I was a kid all the old timers carried U.S. made pocket knives. I always associated those knives as being real Americana.
I can do fixed blades and axes but not any knife going into my pocket.
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What about Chinese made knives that are made in collaboration with an American designer? An American gets a fair amount of the profits for designing and licensing it to them. I'm strictly talking about reputable makers though, like Kizer, WE, Reate, etc. Boos Blades for example has switched to WE knives to produce his designs, currently awaiting my Mini Arrow from Boos.
 
These ethnic or national stereotypes never hold up. Look at Rikeknife. They're not flooding the market with tons of different models, they have a strong design identity, and there are no 'throwaway' offerings. Looking at my Rike 1504A, the design choices reflect a tremendous amount of thoughtfulness, and the result has more soul than a lot of other knives in my collection. I can name at least one US knife company that represents the opposite in every regard.

BTW, I agree that WE appears to possess no actual soul, and Reate is just bland.
 
The issue that I see with the new emergence of high end Chinese knives is the price point. If I could get a Begg Steelcraft for half of what it would cost if ZT did the collaboration, I’d be open to owning a Chinese knife that cost more than $40. As it stands, I will pay an equitable amount for a knife made in the USA every time it seems over a Chinese made knife. This sentiment may change if the knives coming out of companies like Reate keep at such a high level of quality.But as it stands, I don’t think they’ve earned the right to charge the obscene prices that they are charging just based on their time and research in the realm of knife manufacturing.
 
I have little doubt a Chinese knife would meet my ‘needs’ just fine as a cutting tool, but can’t get myself to buy one. There are literally thousands of choices of knives to to buy in this world and I choose to buy other than China made. Mine is a moral choice based on something they condone as a country. Not gonna go into it but if possible, anything I can do to not support them is the direction I go.
 
They spew an endless number of slight variants of the same titanium lockback flipper to a market that can't buy them fast enough.

Which makes "the Chinese" just like the US.

People go apey over the new ZT LE that has different colored screws - preordering, flipping, arguing about flippers, etc etc etc.

There's nothing wrong with any of it, but saying it's a just "Chinese manufacturer thing" is hardly true.
 
`br4dz- said:
What about Chinese made knives that are made in collaboration with an American designer? An American gets a fair amount of the profits for designing and licensing it to them. I'm strictly talking about reputable makers though, like Kizer, WE, Reate, etc. Boos Blades for example has switched to WE knives to produce his designs, currently awaiting my Mini Arrow from Boos.
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Some are very nice knives and I would recommend them to others. To me, its like being in Germany, but drinking Panamainian beer.
 
I don't worry too much about the country of origin, I worry about the product itself. Do I like it, is it well made, does it offer good value for my money? I have quite a few knives from China. The ratio of my China : USA knives is about 3:1 right now. And the ratio of China/US : all other countries is about 50:50. So I am all over the map as to the source of my knives. The one thing I won't stand for is crappy stuff regardless of where it was made. I have had several knives from both China and the USA that got sent back for a refund because of various issues. Some of those makers I will never buy from again because the deal was rotten from one end (product) to the other (service). Others I will and have done business with again.

For me it all boils down to economics not patriotics. Which sounds pretty American to me. Hmmm, a conundrum. :confused:
 
Dan of Bazz Clazz said:
I don't worry too much about the country of origin, I worry about the product itself. Do I like it, is it well made, does it offer good value for my money? I have quite a few knives from China. The ratio of my China : USA knives is about 3:1 right now. And the ratio of China/US : all other countries is about 50:50. So I am all over the map as to the source of my knives. The one thing I won't stand for is crappy stuff regardless of where it was made. I have had several knives from both China and the USA that got sent back for a refund because of various issues. Some of those makers I will never buy from again because the deal was rotten from one end (product) to the other (service). Others I will and have done business with again.

For me it all boils down to economics not patriotics. Which sounds pretty American to me. Hmmm, a conundrum. :confused:
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When you have to keep switching jobs because your company can't pay their employees, while competing with Communist China at the same time (they literally work for rice and don't see their families, proud product to back)....Then my companies outsource more and more work to remain a company.....but have to lay off/force out more and more experienced decently paid employees. Then hire employees that are not qualified but cheaper.....Its a slow death of American manufacturing. True story......it makes the choice easy for this blue collar (deplorable) guy
 
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When the modern folding (Tactical) knife came about in the 90's, most folders were U.S. or Japanese. China made folders were of the lowest quality and cheap. At this rate, U.S. made knives will be too expensive to produce at an affordable price. Crazy that a Benchmade or Emerson costs as much as a SCCY 9mm, Smith&Wesson SD VE or Taurus Millenium G2.
 
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One of the largest problems for me with many of these makers is the narrative of their product. It comes across quite heavily as a desire to cash in on a market rather than as a genuine desire to improve the daily experience of the end user. I feel no passion from them.
 
Dan of Bazz Clazz said:
I don't worry too much about the country of origin, I worry about the product itself. Do I like it, is it well made, does it offer good value for my money? I have quite a few knives from China. The ratio of my China : USA knives is about 3:1 right now. And the ratio of China/US : all other countries is about 50:50. So I am all over the map as to the source of my knives. The one thing I won't stand for is crappy stuff regardless of where it was made. I have had several knives from both China and the USA that got sent back for a refund because of various issues. Some of those makers I will never buy from again because the deal was rotten from one end (product) to the other (service). Others I will and have done business with again.

For me it all boils down to economics not patriotics. Which sounds pretty American to me. Hmmm, a conundrum. :confused:
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For a newbie, could you let us know which makers you would never buy from again? I would not follow a 100% but when enough people say dont get it, no reason to go the trouble of finding out myself. Thanks
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
One of the largest problems for me with many of these makers is the narrative of their product. It comes across quite heavily as a desire to cash in on a market rather than as a genuine desire to improve the daily experience of the end user. I feel no passion from them.
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I agree. It seems like to them it's just "product". Nothing more, nothing less. Pump it out and pump out more!
 
Im so torn and unsure where I stand on Chinese knives. I do not know much about it but still unsure.

In a way, i support global competition for development of higher quality good & services of all nations. It is the driving force of capitalism of the world. If I put myself in shoes of someone in 3rd world country, I would want to compete both in quality and price, and hopefully live well. If I worked very hard to make a product but people hate it simply because of where I am from, it just seems so wrong. Its like people just saying how Americans are bullies, so i am too, when My company or myself are not, or try not to be.

But also in a way, the thought of a proud, ethical, blue-color hard working American man having to compete with someone who is willing to do more work for a fraction of the cost is sad. They need to compete with a factory who may or may not even give a damn about the environmental damage, well being of the employees, or even lives.

I dunno. Not saying what the OP said is wrong, because I dont know enough Chinese brands. But i dont want to make excuses to just hate Chinese products, so I feel less as a bigot or racist. But I also dont want to excuse Chinese ethics for using humans as disposable machines, ignoring trademarks and designs, and ignoring environmental impacts.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
One of the largest problems for me with many of these makers is the narrative of their product. It comes across quite heavily as a desire to cash in on a market rather than as a genuine desire to improve the daily experience of the end user. I feel no passion from them.
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I think this might apply to some overseas manufacturers but there are exceptions. Some of the most passionate interactions between a knife maker and knife enthusiasts occurs with a couple of Chinese manufacturers that I follow. Seriously, can you hold up KAI or Benchmade as an example of passion for the craft? Do we feel they (and us) are engaged in the process of bringing knives to market? We're spoiled by the likes of Sal and Eric Glesser. Most US production knife companies dump shiny new products on the market with little energy or communication. They belch out new products with the same lack of feeling as knives made anywhere. All knife makers do it.

I actually feel closer to the design process and the heart of a knife through Kizer and some of the designers who post regularly on these fora. David Deng (Reate) is very active and reactive on FB and Instagram. WE doesn't have a huge presence in the English speaking world, but we've had discussions here with at least one of their designers. I guarantee US designers know them and are satisfied with their "passion".

Often there's a degree of language barrier but if folks are gonna claim that Chinese makers have no passion, I'm gonna challenge those same folks to get out there and talk to them. Also, what is your benchmark for passion and interaction you hold for them to meet? Is it realistic and universally applied? I think there've been reasonable criticisms raised in this thread but I have to wonder if we're judging Chinese production unfairly. Aren't these gripes valid for the industry as a whole?
 
extrastout said:
When you have to keep switching jobs because your company can't pay their employees, while competing with Communist China at the same time (they literally work for rice and don't see their families, proud product to back)....Then my companies outsource more and more work to remain a company.....but have to lay off/force out more and more experienced decently paid employees. Then hire employees that are not qualified but cheaper.....Its a slow death of American manufacturing. True story......it makes the choice easy for this blue collar (deplorable) guy
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I hear you, and I have been in the same position. the last 2 industries I was in each made my job obsolete and it disappeared. The simple facts are you stay competitive or you lose. If it looks like your job is going to disappear, you have multiple choices. You ride that job as long as you can. You take a pay cut, and ride that job, or allow it to survive, or you move on, re-educate yourself to a different set of marketable skills, and do something different. I chose #3 and have had 3 different main careers in my life. Real problem now is I am way overqualified and educated for my current position, but I have some health issues and age that hinders me from switching to a 4th. career.
One cannot live in a capitalist economy and expect things to stay the same. The competition is constantly changing and improving. Yes a lot of American manufacturing jobs have disappeared. But a lot of new ones have appeared as well. If you are an unskilled worker, the days of making a decent living working putting wheels on next vehicle on the line are going away. The jobs of today are not the jobs on the line of yesterday.
 
Hackenslash said:
I think this might apply to some overseas manufacturers but there are exceptions. Some of the most passionate interactions between a knife maker and knife enthusiasts occurs with a couple of Chinese manufacturers that I follow. Seriously, can you hold up KAI or Benchmade as an example of passion for the craft? Do we feel they (and us) are engaged in the process of bringing knives to market? We're spoiled by the likes of Sal and Eric Glesser. Most US production knife companies dump shiny new products on the market with little energy or communication. They belch out new products with the same lack of feeling as knives made anywhere. All knife makers do it.

I actually feel closer to the design process and the heart of a knife through Kizer and some of the designers who post regularly on these fora. David Deng (Reate) is very active and reactive on FB and Instagram. WE doesn't have a huge presence in the English speaking world, but we've had discussions here with at least one of their designers. I guarantee US designers know them and are satisfied with their "passion".

Often there's a degree of language barrier but if folks are gonna claim that Chinese makers have no passion, I'm gonna challenge those same folks to get out there and talk to them. Also, what is your benchmark for passion and interaction you hold for them to meet? Is it realistic and universally applied? I think there've been reasonable criticisms raised in this thread but I have to wonder if we're judging Chinese production unfairly. Aren't these gripes valid for the industry as a whole?
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Note that I only said "many" rather than "all", and I level the same complaint against many of the established companies these days. There's very little substance in the market right now, and all the flash can't hide it. There's similarly a lack of honest use on the part of many enthusiasts. By that, I mean being honest about what you actually do with your knives and why you actually choose the knives that you do. That has as much to do with what you choose as it does what you shun, and marketers have been doing a hell of a job playing off of that dynamic. By far, the majority of the market is pure hype, and I find that disappointing (but not unexpected--that's consumer culture for ya'.) And as you say, Chinese makers are far from the only ones guilty of this. Literally, when scrolling through my distributors' websites I really can't tell by thumbnails alone which knives are high end and which ones are garbage, and that sword cuts both ways. There are lots of great knives available at low prices, and lots of expensive knives that are as tacky as flea market fare. It's a very muddied and saturated market right there that seemingly lacks direction. Producers need to get their crap together and focus up because there's only so long that things can stay in the state they are right now.
 
Leo3an said:
For a newbie, could you let us know which makers you would never buy from again? I would not follow a 100% but when enough people say dont get it, no reason to go the trouble of finding out myself. Thanks
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Sure, that list is short. Cool Hand (not a major brand, definitely imported) was horrible end to end. They had a small inexpensive fixed blade that caught my eye. It arrive with a broken scale. Then the deal proceeded to take a rocket sled downhill from there. There is another brand I won't mention, who imports knives, they are OK, but not really what I want. The value of price to product so-so. But they aren't doing anything wrong or delivering bad product so I won't bad mouth them. Just not up to what I want or expect. Your mileage may differ.

A manufacturer I am on the fence about would be Ganzo. I've only ever had one of their knives and sent it back to the dealer, no problem. I wasn't impressed by the knife, it certainly wasn't up to the standards of other makers in that price range. Could I buy again. Perhaps but I'm not in a hurry. I bought a Cudeman, defective, sent it back. Had it replaced, no problems. Ditto with Kubey. In fact Kubey went above and beyond to make me happy. Will I buy another Kubey? Perhaps. The nature of the defect was such that I really question how it ever got out of the factory. But they made good on it and I love the one I have now.

One of my favorite makers for production lines is Boker. I own several. However, I have had 3 that I sent back. One was ghastly and not at all what I ordered or would have ordered. It was a "tactical " knife. Not my bag. Really not my bag when I saw it had a chisel grind. :thumbsdown: Another had a far better look in the ad than in real life. The blue anodizing didn't take. I sent it back. A third was a poorly ground Fixed blade. They replaced it without a hitch and have always given me fantastic customer service. That says volumes.

Since you are a newbie, here are some of my top recommendations for low-end value and quality.
Best that I know of is Kershaw. They give tremendous bang for the buck, have a large product line and has something for every taste. They are having more and more of their knives made in China and elsewhere. I own 8 different models and I love them all. Not a single issue with any of them.

Rough Rider. This manufacturer is definitely the low cost leader. Knives are amazing considering what you pay for them. Do they compare to Kershaw, Zero Tolerance, or Great Eastern Cutlery? Not a chance. But they can't compete with Rough Rider either. Generic steel, and few if any specs on what they make. But I have a white bone Barlow knife I paid $12 retail. It is one of my main rotation gentleman's knives if I am dressing up, at least for a date.

Opinel - A French manufacturer. They make a ring lock folding knife that is absolutely amazing for its simplicity of engineering, and manufacturing. It is a beacon of genius which makes it's plain look downright elegant. It is also one of the sharpest factory edges I ever had. How many $25 dollar knives can you say that about?
 
Dan of Bazz Clazz said:
Sure, that list is short. Cool Hand (not a major brand, definitely imported) was horrible end to end. They had a small inexpensive fixed blade that caught my eye. It arrive with a broken scale. Then the deal proceeded to take a rocket sled downhill from there. There is another brand I won't mention, who imports knives, they are OK, but not really what I want. The value of price to product so-so. But they aren't doing anything wrong or delivering bad product so I won't bad mouth them. Just not up to what I want or expect. Your mileage may differ.

A manufacturer I am on the fence about would be Ganzo. I've only ever had one of their knives and sent it back to the dealer, no problem. I wasn't impressed by the knife, it certainly wasn't up to the standards of other makers in that price range. Could I buy again. Perhaps but I'm not in a hurry. I bought a Cudeman, defective, sent it back. Had it replaced, no problems. Ditto with Kubey. In fact Kubey went above and beyond to make me happy. Will I buy another Kubey? Perhaps. The nature of the defect was such that I really question how it ever got out of the factory. But they made good on it and I love the one I have now.

One of my favorite makers for production lines is Boker. I own several. However, I have had 3 that I sent back. One was ghastly and not at all what I ordered or would have ordered. It was a "tactical " knife. Not my bag. Really not my bag when I saw it had a chisel grind. :thumbsdown: Another had a far better look in the ad than in real life. The blue anodizing didn't take. I sent it back. A third was a poorly ground Fixed blade. They replaced it without a hitch and have always given me fantastic customer service. That says volumes.

Since you are a newbie, here are some of my top recommendations for low-end value and quality.
Best that I know of is Kershaw. They give tremendous bang for the buck, have a large product line and has something for every taste. They are having more and more of their knives made in China and elsewhere. I own 8 different models and I love them all. Not a single issue with any of them.

Rough Rider. This manufacturer is definitely the low cost leader. Knives are amazing considering what you pay for them. Do they compare to Kershaw, Zero Tolerance, or Great Eastern Cutlery? Not a chance. But they can't compete with Rough Rider either. Generic steel, and few if any specs on what they make. But I have a white bone Barlow knife I paid $12 retail. It is one of my main rotation gentleman's knives if I am dressing up, at least for a date.

Opinel - A French manufacturer. They make a ring lock folding knife that is absolutely amazing for its simplicity of engineering, and manufacturing. It is a beacon of genius which makes it's plain look downright elegant. It is also one of the sharpest factory edges I ever had. How many $25 dollar knives can you say that about?
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Thank you bery much. This is extremely helpful!
 
China vs USA. Can't see where either one has more "passion" behind it than the other. Both are equally well made and designed in my opinion. I consider them both fine examples.
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