Opinions on serrations?

B

BigRott

Joined
Jan 6, 2000
Messages
71
Hello,

It has been my understanding that, depending on what material is being cut, serrations can increase cutting efficiency up to 20% over a plain edge blade. This does not mean that it is easier to use a serrated blade, just that it will take fewer strokes to sever the material. Cutting with a serrated blade actually takes more effort per stroke becasue more material is being cut with each push/pull. How much of this increase in efficiency is due to the serrations and how much is due to the fact that serrations tend to be ground at a steeper angle than a plain edge blade?

It seems like the aggressive Spyderco style serrations have become more or less the industry standard. While these are very effective, they are not very smooth and can lead to more ripping than cutting. Cold Steel has a serration pattern with much finer teeth. They seem able to cut much smoother than the more aggressive pattern yet few other comapnies have a fine serration pattern such as this. It's like the difference between cutting with a bow saw or a hack saw - both get the job done but each has a different feel. Why don't more companies offer a fine tooth pattern?

I have seen a lot of nice, smaller blades that IMHO have been ruined by the inappropriate use of serrations. I believe that blades under about 2.5 inches shouldn't have any serrations on them at all. There just doesn't appear to be enough cutting surface available to make the serrations useful. But a similar plain edge blade may make fine push cuts or be a great slicer.

Blades in the 2.5-3.5 inch range seem well suited to a fully serrated edge, but not a combo-edge. The combo-edge seems to leave too little of both the plain edge and the serrated portion for either to be really effective. Blades of 3.5+ inches seem large enough to accomodate either a combo-edge or full serrations.

The end result for me: I like small blades to be plain edge, medium blades to be plain or fully serrated, and large blades plain or with full or partial serrations.

How about you?

Later,

MBS



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Nevermind the dog...beware of owner!
 
Well, let me get this out of the way early.
I for one am SICK of SERRATIONS! Ugly little teeth, except on a Bread knife i never want to see them again.
 
I have learned the hard way that serrations are more of a hinderance than help in the way I use my knives. They are also harder to sharpen and keep looking good. The fine teeth on the CS's are almost as worthless as a those on a Ginsu knife when it comes to sharpening them. My serrated kitchen knives have even been replaced with a good, sharp, plain blade. Try cutting a steak with a steak knife or a truly sharp knife. There simply is no comparison. I still do believe they have their place in rescue and survival areas where they may have certain advantages.

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It's only a mistake if you fail to learn from it!
 
I like serrations for fibrous materials like green branches and nylon web. A plain edge just slides...

As for the fine tooth serrations, I like them for starting a cut, as they make a smoother entry without snagging, but once that's through, I don't like anything about them. They're not as aggressive as, for example, the SpyderEdge, they're impossible (or at least impractical) to sharpen, they collect matter in the spaces between teeth (which is not easy to clean!), and the teeth are more likely to break.

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AKTI Member #A000832

"A man's got to know his limitations." - Dirty Harry
 
I have to agree with the posts thus far. I have never encountered a situation in which I felt I needed a serrated blade. I try to keep my plain edge knives constantly sharp. It is my understanding that serrated edges are more appropriate for cutting rope and netting. They also have emergency response applications. Serrated edges make it very difficult to make clean, detailed cuts. I don't carry my knives for self-defense, so I don't know how serrated edges figure into a "tactical" situation.

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Steve
 
Ditto Phil's comments. Although I would have to agree with Brian's points, too. I don't like them because I don't need them and I can't sharpen them! If I worked in a rope factory, it'd be a different story, but for my uses serrations are unlikable.

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There are materials in which serrations will handily outcut even a very coarse-ground plain edge blade. However, for *me*, getting into those kinds of situations is somewhat contrived. For my own general use, a plain edge is much more useful overall, and leaving part of the edge coarse gives me close-enough-to-serrated performance that I'm happy with that format.

So, on my 4" plain edge knives, I tend to take most of the edge to 400-600 grit, but then I rough up the back inch or so down to 200 grit or lower. This gives me a piece of edge that's great for slicing, but the entire edge is in-line (unlike a partially-serrated blade).

Okay, on to a serrated vs. plain carry strategy. First of all, if I'm carrying a serrated blade, it means I'm carrying 2 knives, because I'll definitely be carrying a plain edge blade also. Next, I feel that serrations work so well, I'm perfectly happy with the serrations being on the small knife (e.g., delica), and keeping the big knife (e.g., endura) plain edge. That way, my big general-use knife stays generally-useful, and my special-use serrated knife does not need to be big in order to be effective.

That said, my more usual 2-knife carry strategy is a plain-edge 4"-bladed knife for harder general use (e.g., endura, axis), plus a 3" plain edge with a thin razor edge (e.g., Calypso Jr.).

Joe

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 03-16-2000).]
 
I agree that serrations are overrated BUT...
I was doing construction work in the basement and found that my Delica is a great trim saw, especially when the trim was already attached. Thing works great on fiberboard too... I guess it's a little saw in these cases though. Plain edges are best all around.

P.S. With a few cheap tools serrations can get VERY sharp.
 
I have to disagree with Joe's plain/serrated carry strategy. Rather than have my small knife (Delica) be serrated and my large knife (Endura) plain, I'd do it the other way around. Given a choice, I prefer a small blade more often than a large one, and I prefer a plain edge more often than a serrated edge. So it makes sense for me to keep the serrations on the larger knife. For the record, I usually carry three knives, not counting the multi-tool du jour: a big plain folder (710 Axis Lock or Military), a small plain folder (Calypso Jr. Lightweight), and a large serrated folder (Endura). The Calypso Jr. gets the most use BY FAR, because it is both plain and small. The large serrated knife is the one I use the least. Maybe it's the least used because I keep it in my left-side pocket. Maybe I keep it in my left-side pocket because it's the least useful. Whatever. I guess where Joe and I differ is in which knife we think of as our primary general use knife. His is the big plain folder, while mine is the little plain folder. Joe said his two-knife combination usually includes a plain Calypso Jr. and a large plain edge folder. It looks like we both agree that the serrated knife, large or small, is the third knife, not the second.

Joe, I'd be interested to know, given your big plain and small plain carry combination, if you actually find the big knife more generally useful than the small one. I tend to think of my big knife as being for emergencies more than for normal day-to-day chores. I guess I don't eat that many thick sandwiches!

Here's something else I've been thinking about. (It's a wonder I get any sleep at all.) Everyone talks about serrations in terms of rope cutting. I think a clarification is in order. Serrations work better on rope, but only in these two situations:

1) When the rope is under tension. Try cutting a loose piece of rope (looping the rope over the edge) with an aggressively serrated blade. Notice how hard you have to pull. Aaarrrgh!

2) When the plain edged contestant knife is dull or likely to become dull before the work is done. Assuming a moderate or considerable degree of dullness for either blade type--and remember, most of the knives in the world are dull!--a serrated blade probably will work better than a plain edge.

For me, the real value of serrations is not in the rope and seat-belt cutting department, but rather, in cutting wire and hard plastics. Basically, you want your edge to be just aggressive enough to keep the material engaged against the edge long enough to complete the cut.

David Rock

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AKTI Member # A000846
Stop when you get to bone.

[This message has been edited by David Rock (edited 03-16-2000).]
 
Bigrott, you nailed most of my thoughts on serrations. Especially concerning blade length. Thank goodness, I now know I'm not the only one who thinks like this!!!!
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I have had to do some impromptu tree trimming on pines just before they were sold at Christmas and a serrated knife did the trick. At the greenhouse I used to work at, I'd have to cut some plastic trays, baskets, etc and the serrated knife worked wonders there as well. I consider serrated knives to be for hard working.

I have use for the serrated blades I have anymore (spyderco rescue, harpy and merlin), but that's about all I need. Everything else I get will be plain edge.
 
I'd just like to chime in on this one. I have one serrated knife, and that is the second blade on my SwissTool. I had a partially serrated knife, but if filed off the serration because they were just too annoying. If I ever get into boating, I'll get myself a fully serrated knife but, other than that, I haven't ever seen a situation where I thought serrations would be useful (see the post above about cutting rope that isn't under tension with a serrated blade. In addition, since most of my knives are ostensibly for camping/hiking/survival, I don't want the hassle of sharpening serrations in the field.

Ok, I guess that was more than a chime, but I just got back from spring break, and I really missed Bladeforums (could only read it once or twice a day
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--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
RLR hit pretty much on the head with the word saw. On some things a saw works better than a blade such as a ceiling tile. Rope is often mention by those singing the virtues of a serrated blade but is is simply not a fact in real world rope cutting. A person seldom has the option of stretching the rope on a board and sawing it like in the tests.
Believe me on this one, been there, done that, cut a lot of rope, serrated blades suck in the real world of rope cutting.
One exception is big manilla rope. The real world method of cutting it is to tape it up with duct tape and use a hacksaw. They don't make serrated knife blades that fine.
 
Agreeing with pretty much everything above I have to confess that in some design cases partially serrated blade looks just eye-appealing to me.
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So, as Joe and others, I always carry two blades on me, one plain and the other partially serrated.
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And once every while those serrations come REALLY handy and then I am happy I have both.

Just my 1 grosz

Kris


 
I love serrations, this has been debated for the longest time, I dont like full serrations I am really into the 50/50, and I love it because you can cut just about anything with it.................
 
David --

My reasoning for my carry strategy is this ...

First, I won't even be carrying a serrated knife unless I know I have a particular use for it that day, which is rarely. However, given that I want serrations, there is no job I do for which a 3" serrated blade isn't enough blade for the job.

For the plain edge, I don't feel a 4" plain edge is particularly unwieldy -- sometimes I carry just a 4" plain edge knife, and don't feel I'm over-knifed or anything. So I carry my favorite format in the big size, to handle any job, and I carry my specialty knife in a size that's just big enough.

Your strategy makes plenty of sense, too. I've done it before (I have a fully-serrated endura), and just find I like my big knife to be in the more useful format.

Joe, I'd be interested to know, given your big plain and small plain carry combination, if you actually find the big knife more generally useful than the small one.
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When I'm carrying that calypso jr. as my small knife, it definitely ends up my primary cutter, with the big knife used for the rare jobs that need a longer reach, are much rougher on the edge, or for backup defensive use. But that ordering is partially because that Calypso Jr. cuts like a scalpel! A blade that cuts so easily has to end up as the primary. If I switched it around, and carried, say, a thin-edge 4" Calypso Sr. and a thick-edged 3" tactical of some kind, I bet the bigger but better-cutting Calypso Sr. would still end up my primary knife.

Keep in mind, though, that "not scaring folks" is NOT one of my concerns. I do not pull out *either* knife in front of anyone that isn't a knife person, so appearances are not a concern, just cutting ability.

Joe
 
90%+ of all my cutting is nylon and poly rope and twine and I use plain edge only.Any knife of any steel of any blade geometry needs sharpening after an hour or two of hard use starting from n.i.b.and plain blades are easier and much faster to resharpen.Even on single cuts I prefer plain edge sharp over serrated sharp because the latter seems to get hung up on individual fibers.
 
Let me chime in & IMHO say serrations are too limited as to cutting different materials cleanly. I find that a well sharpened plain edge blade cuts what I need to cut quickly & cleanly. No more serrated blades for me,{unless maybe on a bread knife}.

Doug
 
TomW :

One exception is big manilla rope. The real world method of cutting it is to tape it up with duct tape and use a hacksaw.
Click to expand...

I have never had to do that, how thick is "big" ?

-Cliff
 
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