Optimal edge type for self defence applications?

Sorry, Little Claw, but I keep getting drug back into this political and legal discussion. To be brief, all I can say is that what is right and what is wrong are the primary considerations to me. There is no justification for punishing a person in connection with legitimate self-defense. Sometimes the ends do justify the means. Should a cop give a speeding ticket to someone who is rushing a seriously ill or injured person to a hospital? Speeding is illegal, but there are situations where law enforcement should choose to look the other way.

My view is that right and wrong should be the chief considerations in cases like the ones mentioned here, and that's all I can say about it.
 
hence my usage of Wharncliff blades as my prefered EDC's that, like others are kept strictly for protective retreat benefits.

Hence my desire for Sal at Spyderco to come out with a Wharncliff blade that is not purposely designed for rescue. 3.5 inches of a truely flat cutting edge and minimal point for accurate work would be very nice indeed.:cool:
 
I think brownie made some excellent points. Heed them. I totally agree about serrated edges. I tried using them on small animals several times, and they would catch the skin and fur & did not penetrate worth a dang on slashes. It would rip the skin leaving a nasty scrape, but did not do 1/4 the damage a sharp straight edge does. On thrusts, the serrations would hang up on the skin and almost totally prevent penetration. I actually had to squish the animal against the ground just to get the tip in 1 inch, and then the serrations hung up on the ribs. In contrast, a very pointy straight edge blade will practically slide in under its own weight, and will even go right thru shoulder blades with ease.

As far as what grit you use, I think that will depend on your sharpening skills. If you know how to make a finely honed & polished edge w/o a burr so sharp it will shave the hairs from your arm without touching the skin, then I'd say go that route. If you are honestly not that proficient with the stones, then there's really no point going beyond a toothy edge sharpened on a medium or coarse stone. And, don't think for a minute edge sharpness doesn't matter! Would you believe an 18" long Bowie knife will literally bounce off skin with a full force swing? If the edge is not quite sharp, and there is no drawing action in your swing, it can happen. I've done it many times, and it's never pleasant.

Also, regarding thrusts- the point must be very acute and on center line with the blade/thrust. If you're using a design that presents the *edge* to the target rather than the *point*, such as a drop point or tanto, then the edge is doing all the work and sharpness becomes extremely important. And it still won't deal well with even light bones.
 
Originally posted by W.T. Beck
Should a cop give a speeding ticket to someone who is rushing a seriously ill or injured person to a hospital? Speeding is illegal, but there are situations where law enforcement should choose to look the other way.
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Now see, THAT is a good argument, but it's also one that can be easily discredited. Ronald Dixon shot someone. If the DA had been really uptight they could have easily charged him with assault with a deadly weapon. But this was clearly a self-defense case, so that crime was overlooked. The term is mitigating circumstances (I'm sure you know this, I'm just mentioning this for the viewers at home :D ). When you're driving someone to the hospital at 95 in a 30 and a cop stops you, he's not going to ticket you. The person bleeding in the seat next to you is definitely a mitigating circumstance. But if the officer finds that you were drunk or were in posession of an illegal narcotic then he can and probably will arrest you and you'll be charged with that crime. I have to give you this much, unlike every other gun dude I've talked to you actually make some sensible statements. Maybe I only converse with the more on-edge gun nuts and don't know it. ;) :D

If I was going to carry a knife purely for self defense purposes I'd go with something with a nasty sharp tip. Probably a drop point of some kind. When you're down to the "Get your knee off my neck" point you need something with a wicked tip to convey your displeasure with your assailants placing his knee on or about your person. I'd want something with a good-sized guard. Not to deflect anything, but to keep my fingers from slipping too far forward if my grip is compromised during a thrust.

Blackwood
Hossom
Rinaldi

Any more questions? :D
 
I admittedly have little to no experience with this, but....
Maybe the focus should be less on the type of edge, and more on the type of handle. If one is to thrust, it must have a real, practical guard. You might not hit what you are aiming for, and stuff happens...Grippy enough, ergonomic for YOUR hand will, I think, be more instrumental in providing you with better defense than a hollow vs flat grind, or drop vs. clip, etc.

Having said all of that, nothing pierces like, nor even comes close to piercing like my Webb and Fisher Wharncliffe. Suprised the hell out of me, really, but it goes through everything. Just have some fun and slash some paper towels. It slashes (unscientifically) longer and deeper than my BM 720, my reliable CRKT Apache 2,, even my old Socom which I sold for hand-size reasons.... Try a good, thin, sharp Wharnie. You'll be a believer.
 
I guess from a legality point of view, I'm pretty lucky to live in Oregon. They have a "must issue" concealed handgun law for about the last 12 or so years. However, I always have carried a pistol, whether or not I (or it) was legal to. I have also carried a 10" concealed Bowie for about 20 years, for a backup weapon. I just don't do stuff that gets me searched... and if I need to cut or shoot somebody, I'll take my chances with the legal system.

A wise man said: "It is better to be judged by 12, than carried by six".
 
I have a cs recon scout as my edc when not at work,its in the open and legal...carry my hunting licence if anyones got questions about what where and why...so if some stupid sob is still gonna try it, its his choice.:p you should see the look someone gives you when they are trying to intimadate you with a little screwdriver and you pull this out:D
 
If you were to ever pull a knife in self defense I would hope it would be to defend your life, because that is the only justification, legally or otherwise. That being said there would be only one purpose and it would not be subduing your adversary.

Being technical, I believe the point is more critical than the edge. In a knife fight, slicing an individual will be difficult and blood loss can take minutes which is an eternity in such a situation thus prolonging the event -- which in turn, could result in additional injury or death to yourself. A thrust to something vital is the safest way to defend youself in the confrontation.

By the way I do not carry a blade for self defense and will probably regret my reply later.:grumpy: I pray none of us ever face that situation.
 
Quiet Bear:

Slicing an individual is actually pretty easy when they are reaching into your inner circle otherwise they are not an immediate threat. If they reach in it is much easier to slash across an arm or wrist, or catch a hand than to attempt to stab any of these while it is moving around.

Stabbing will usually be to the body somewhere which means you are then within their range as well and may likely take damage while giving some.

Bad, bad, and unacceptable if it can be avoided.

Brownie
 
Diamdave makes a good point about guards and a secure grip. Alot of modern knives designs have minimal or even no guards. I've always looked for knives with effective guards, and I can tell you that these are hard to find.
 
I have been reading these posts with a passing interest. I don't carry a knife for any type of s.d. cause I have a CCW. That being said I can guarantee you that you will most definetly go to jail at least for awhile if you do indeed defend yourself with a knife.

Let's face it here folks it just isn't socially accepted to defend your life with a knife. Can there be mitigating circumstances. Absolutely. Will you in all liklyhood not only spend time in the hooscow but probably incur huge expenses getting out and getting off. Absolutely. Will it be worth it, if you are within the law again absolutely.

As for the type of edge I would have to agree with a razor sharp edge be it serrated or plain. I tore up a carhart jacket with a CS XLG Voyager with ease that was all serrated. I also tore up some work jeans with a like knife only plain edged and of the 4" variety. Couldn't discern much difference really other than a bit of drag on the serrated model but nothing that would comprimise the ability of the individual using it. Especially in a panic situation.

As for what works best, well I had an aquaintence shall we say who I rode scoots with about 15 yrs ago take a 5" hunting knife in the stomach by a hang around of a nationally known m.c. Didn't kill him and in fact he didn't loose consciousness at all. Totally dsgusting though. This happened at a bar in Bath NY which shall remian nameless. The fella has a rather large scar and is still kind of the same a-hole he always was and will always be. I call the dude that stabbed him a member of the ass stabbers club as they will do this with there Gerbers'(or whatever they now carry)when they are out numbered and about to go down. Was any of this happening at the time of the incident. Nope, but the dude I rode with sure has a big mouth even to this day. Which led to the incident mentioned. Did I see it actually happen nope I was turned away. Saw the end results though. So take it for it is worth. Don't carry a large scary knife for s.d. Just ain't gonna float with the D.A. nor the coppers. I don't carry anything bigger than 3.25" but the knife I do have on me is dead nuts razor sharp and isn't a macho killer s.d. blade. Just right for opening envelopes, cutting straps, rope, etc. etc. It doesn't have a killer name associated with it either. It isn't modified in any way and well is pretty generic. Keep'em sharp
 
Longbow,

I also have a ccw and carry knives for defensive purposes as well.

The knife is likely to be considered the lesser of the two though both are lethal force weapons. If I use the knife to defend with in lieu of shooting him/her who was threatening my existance where I could have shot the person and had the means to do so on my person with the correct permits, I don't believe there will be issues with using the knife.

The knife will probably not have to kill him through training unless that is absolutely necessary. The knife, though lethal force, is not considered in the same regard relative what one might expect if cut. You may die from a cut but probably not, and certainly not if I cut you in the right places which stops the attacker yet results in an injury that wasn't life threatening. The expectation is that you will probably die if you are shot.

I can certainly defend my actions in a court as well as articulate the reasoning behind using the knife [ If I chose to do so over using the firearm ]. I have more control over what gets damaged with a knife.

The mindset runs something like this---I could have shot him, was within my rights of self defense to do so, and chose not to use the gun but to defend with the blade.

You are not any more prone to spending time in the klink from using a knife than using a gun in your own defense. If it was a good defense of your person, the way in which you defended in almost moot.

You certainly have a point about knives being frowned upon for defense, the key is to be able to articulate your actions and reasoning behind the defense where a reasonable and prudent person may come to the same conclusion.

People fear knives, they fear guns more though. Almost everyone has useda knife to cut their dinner meat, veggies, etc and are familiar with their use. Most do not have the same experience with a gun.

Certainly in states where there is no ccw and you can't carry a firearm, the courts already see the knife as a defensive tool used in it's place. If the knife was legal to possess to begin with and no one is allowed to carry a firearm, it's pretty reasonable for most to conclude the knife would be an alternative in those locales.


Drag on the blade due to serrations produices a cut less deep than it could have been with less drag. A silly millimeter deeper could be the diffrence between disabling the attacker or not. If I'm going to cut someone in a defensive scenario, I want to be sure the cut gets as deep as I want it and not less so due to drag on the blade. Less drag can also produce a longer cut at times.

I'm sure the courts in the southeastern US deal with self defense claims where a knife was used quite often due to the rich history of blade play back in the 1800's. It's also why they have some of the most restrictive knife laws at this time.

Everyone [ you know what I mean ] carries a blade in the deep south for personal protection. The cops know it, they see it, it's accepted as longas the knife meets the states restrictions and as maentioned the courts deal with it often as well.

Though other parts of the country would not be quick to accept that you used a knife for defense, it comes down not to the type of weapon used [ if used correctly ] but whether you had justification to use anything at all to begin with.

Edited to add: Cops all over the country now carry a folding or straight knife with the idea it can and may be used as a last ditch backup weapon [ last ditch as they have other alternatives which are threir issued primary level of force which are not available to some others not in that profession ]. Hard to be able to argue that the cops who responded also was carrying a similiar folder with possible defense in mind.

Again, it comes down to being able to articulate reasonably and not come off like a bozo or banger.

Brownie
 
Assuming that you cannot escape the situation and absolutely must defend yourself with a knife....

Blades styles are really not terribly important. Make sure it's sharp.

I'd personally feel comfortable with serrated edge or plain edge; they both have their virtues.

Blade length: without regard to legalities, the largest blade possible is best. In my state, there are no maximum blade lengths. Still, I try to keep it reasonable, not more than about 4 inches.

In the prison where I work, I've seen the results of dozens of stabbings/slashings. All were done with homemade, improvised knives that inmates made from various materials.

I've seen throats cut by razor knives that had been constructed by embedding razor blades into the handles of toothbrushes, and they worked extremely effectively (though, contrary to the movies, the victims rarely died).

The deaths that I have seen mostly came from stab wounds. Stabbing also has proven to be the fastest way to stop a man in a fight, based on what I've seen.

What was the most important factor of victory in knife fights (or ANY fights) that I've witnessed? Mindset. Determination. Audacity. The sheer will to win, and never give up or go down.
 
Brownie I don't care how articulate you are in stating your reasoning for using a gun or a knife in a s.d. situation. Chances are you going to jail after the fact. It is just the way it is. You probably won't be released unless you can post bond and only if at the preliminary you can convince somebody in the court you were within you rights to use d.p.f. In NYS no matter what you will either get get a True Bill indictment or a No Bill. No Bill and you're off the hook.

In the past several yrs there have been any number of incidents in which an individual used a knife to defend his life around where I live. One was an older fella who was carjacked and picked a Rapala fillet knife out from under the seat and killed one cj'er and severly injured the other to get away. He went to jail for the weekend if I recall correctly and then had to post bond. Maybe longer in jail not sure. The other one was within the suburb I live in where a young man used a buck style folding knife to get a away from several other young men and a young woman. He was getting his head kicked in. He too went to jail but was no billed. He I bleive was in jail kind of a long time. Lastly happened over in the hood near where I used to live. Maybe within a mile of my street. A fella went nuts with a Samurai sword and a group of guys he was threatning took it from him and cut his arm off and he died. I don't think any of them went to jail. Though I can't be to sure. My whole point is no matter how right or whatever you will go to jail. Especially using a knife. Several incidents of self preservation using guns and none went to jail.

Lastly I don't know how you would cut someone a little when they are attacking you and you think you are going to die. I can't imagine how your adrenaline would be pumping to be able to control a cut like that. I personally don't think you can. No matter what one says or believes he or she can do. Anyways all food for thought. Keep'em sharp.
 
Originally posted by Turnkey
Blades styles are really not terribly important. Make sure it's sharp.
I'd personally feel comfortable with serrated edge or plain edge; they both have their virtues.
What was the most important factor of victory in knife fights (or ANY fights) that I've witnessed? Mindset. Determination. Audacity. The sheer will to win, and never give up or go down.
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Turnkey- I have some family in Allentown.

Anyway, I want to agree with you in that edge type and blade shape are certainly not the first things on the list of concerns. There's a whole bunch of stuff I'd want to consider before getting to the details.

However, I'd have to disagree with anyone who said "Blade styles are not terribly important." True, if it's sharp, that will help overcome some of the drawbacks of certain blade shapes, but it has been my experience that when the actual cutting starts, blade shape can indeed make all the difference in the world. As in, penetrating to the hilt vs. barely breaking the skin. As in, LIFE AND DEATH. Given the myriad of knives on the market, why would you want to choose one for defensive purposes that was not fully suited to the task?

Some like to say that the glass is half full. Nearly any blade *can* kill someone. But, if I'm running to a fire with a fire extinguisher that's filled to 50% capacity, to me it's definitely "half empty"! Same with the knife. I'd rather carry a knife that given the same force, will inflict more damage. Blade and edge shape do have a lot to do with that.
 
I've got to quit reading this thread. These stories like longbow's about people going to jail for self-defense just make me mad as hell.

I saw a quote by Satin on another thread that sums up my opinion on this subject very succinctly:

In todays society denying people the right to self defense is no less than attempted murder.
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That's the best statement I have ever read on the subject of self- defense.
 
Longbow greetings from Webster.I seem to remember a few deferances in those stories.The carjacked man did in fact kill one but the other was just cut on the hand.I listened to him tell about it on WHAM where he had worked as a dj back in the day and don't remember any jail time.

The samuri sword one.Do you mean the one with the owner of the store at Hayward ave and N.goodman st? I happened to respond to that one and nobody died.The store owner lost a hand though.He pulled it on a group stealing from his story,ran outside after them was jumped lost his sword and got hacked up.When the robbers take your weapon and turn it on you I not sure thats SD.

Btw that area is my first in district and I lived not to far away also on Pershing dr.What street did you live on?
 
I want my SD knives' edges to be plain and polished.

I don't need super-duper scary sharpness, but I keep them shaving sharp at all times - that's enough IMO.
 
Lonehunter you may be correct about the store owner. I thought and that is a scary word for me here, thought he threatened the individuals with the sword. I thought that these individuals were not the ones that robbed him but just happen to be there so to speak. Could be wrong on that one. You are also correct in stating he didn't die. My bad on that one. AS for the gentleman who was car jacked I could alson be wrong about spending time in jail although I think he did and there was stinnk that he had to post bail or bond etc. Heck maybe the teenager in Irond. where I now live didn't spend anytime in jail either. Almost certain he did though. Don't know how this all came to be about justifiable use of force when the originator of the thread just wanted to know which edge is better for s.d. Go figure.

I now live in W. Irond. and couldn't be happier used to live in Rosewood and then Hazelwood. Kept an income property on Rosewood for a good while til I dumped it. Keep'em sharp
 
Leaving aside legal issues and carrying/concealment, I would suggest a blade that is not too thick (I'd prefer 3mm to the "standard" 4 mm), has a slight recurve for added cutting power, a generous, maybe sharpened false edge for better penetration, a slight hollow grind and the best, finest, polished edge you can get for easy and deep slashes (just what I have read from people like Brownie and Fred Perrin, but it makes sense to me that the finely polished plain edge is the best cutter). The importance of grip over blade has been mentioned already - if the "user interface" does not work for you the finest blade is useless.

While it may be true that serrated blades cause nastier wounds, a blade configurated for precise stabbing with adequate slashing capacity is better suited for finishing the fight quickly (which is what you want to do once you have to go for it). This leads to the question of training: pick the type of blade that you are used to train with. If you are into FMA styles that cut a lot a dagger type blade is not the best choice.
 
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