Order in limbo experience - your advice

Joss

Joss

Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
7,353
All,

I'd be interested in getting your opinion regarding the following.

In April 2003, I placed 2 orders with a maker. One was for a small knife, the second for a large Mediteranean Bowie. The maker was enthusiastic about both ideas.

Last year, the smaller knife finally arrived, and I was very happy with it. I was a bit disappointed by the time it took, because I'm quite certain the maker realized other commissions in the meantime, for orders that were placed more recently. However, I still haven't got any news reg. the Med' bowie.

It's been 2 1/2 years now since I placed the order, and I've seen many of his knives posted here by proud owners (and they were right to be proud, as he does great work). Needless to say, those left me a bitter taste in the mouth, as most were for orders placed well after me (to be fair, I don't *know* that for all cases, but I very much suspect so).

I have touched base with the maker several times on the subject of the Med' bowie. Sometimes, a maker will agree to an order that they're not really excited about, that ends up never being done. I'm understanding of this and I suggested several times that we could change the order if he'd rather do something else. Each time, I got renewed commitment and interest.

So I'm interested in opinions on what I should do. I suspect that one effective method would be to bug the maker every 2 weeks. I am not really interested in this course of action. I could send one email explaining my problem, maybe a bit more forcefully than I have in the past. Alternatively, at this point, I'm considering just canceling the order - no deposit was ever paid, and that would be a reasonably painless resolution, however unsatisfactory. It's important for me to keep good relations with this person.

What do you guys think?
 
Maybe you should just ask this maker point blank if he ever intendes to do the bowie, and express your disappointment at not having received it yet. This maker may not have an idea that it's been so long since you placed the original order, perhaps he should be reminded of this as well. Sometime you just have to take the direct path. I know you want to retain good relations with this maker, so be up front about that too.
 
I've done that already in the past, in a polite way. I could do that again, more forcefully yet without confrontation.
 
Also, something that I've found very helpful sometimes is someone what they would do if they were in your shoes.
 
Joss,You need to Email him today and express your concerns,2006 is tonight! I would get a date for arrival or cancel order.Just my .02 cents
Since it's you,it's probably a JS or MS,eh? :D Doug.
 
Joss,
With some makers, ABS stands for American Bullshi$t Society.

I have been through this with several makers and it really is a shame.
At the end of the day I gave no deposit so it was no big deal, but hey it is the principal, right?

If you are really excited about the knife, keep the order and one day it will be a nice surprise. Otherwise cancel it and order a knife from a maker who cares. As this is bothering you enough to post here, my guess is that you will never be happy with the knife when it shows up as you will always associate it with the maker and his tardiness.

I am waiting on a Fisk knife for about 5 years. I don't have a problem with that as I knew about it upfront. Every time I ask Jerry about it he kind of rolls his eyes and makes believe he can't hear me :) I know my order is one of hundreds but I am not going to cancel as one day it will show up and it will be a cornerstone of my ABS collection.

I am waiting on an equally good knife from another ABS MS that has made every lame excuse under the sun why my knife hasn't arrived for almost 4 years. "I shipped it to the wrong address", "the handle cracked", the "blade warped", "the knife went in a wet sheath and rusted". This year at Blade Show I saw my knife, spec'd out just like the maker had said it would be.
Problem was it was sitting on a purveyors table! Oh well! Was I a bit peeved? Sure. I also got a good laugh at the same time. I didn't confront the maker, but he knew I saw it. Guess the purveyor was willing to pay more as my knife was ordered at the "Old price" and the purveyor most certainly paid the "new price".

A few years ago I also came to the realization that there was no such thing in my life as a "knife emergency". I have plenty of top drawer knives and one new one, no matter how sought after, would not change my life one iota. These are just toys for most of us, a form of high art that will generally be oiled, placed in a case and locked in a safe shortly after we receive it.
 
Joss,

I'm waiting on orders from three makers since '02/'03 so I realize the anticipation you must feel. Two of those makers I've seen at the Blade show every year and I ask them about my orders then but I don't really push the issue. One is from a working maker that doesn't make knives that often and the other is for a utilitarian model from a maker that specializes in art pieces. As long as the maker hasn't given you a set delivery date or taken a deposit then maybe it would be best to just wait for him to be inspired to make your piece or be able to fit it into his schedule. It may be that your knife will be a special project and will be worth the wait. If you really feel that you don't want to wait much longer, then I don't see anything wrong with contacting the maker to see if he'll agree to a specific time schedule. Until then, you at least have one or two Fogg's to play with... :D

-Jose
 
Thanks Anthony - good input and comments here.

Just to be clear, the maker has not BS'ed me. He's apologized and said he was disorganized, but he never lied or was dishonest.

This point of yours is well taken:
Anthony Lombardo said:
As this is bothering you enough to post here, my guess is that you will never be happy with the knife when it shows up as you will always associate it with the maker and his tardiness.
Click to expand...
I might be better off just cancelling the knife and one day buy something equally good at a show...

JD
 
Joss,

I have been in a similar situation. It may very well be the same maker.

The conclusion that I reached was that the maker is indulging his hobby, and not actually running a business. We have had extensive conversations directly on this very point. I don't expect any changes to his business "plan" (complete lack thereof) in this lifetime.
I have simply stopped worrying about it.

Joss, I would like to add this clarification: Please don't think that I am taking your predicament lightly. In the real world, this sort of practice is totally unacceptible. You have to proceed as you feel best. I have Emailed you the name of my maker and I am virtually certain that it is the same as yours. Drop me an Email, if you wish to discuss this off the forum.

Best, Peter
 
I am waiting on an equally good knife from another ABS MS that has made every lame excuse under the sun why my knife hasn't arrived for almost 4 years. "I shipped it to the wrong address", "the handle cracked", the "blade warped", "the knife went in a wet sheath and rusted". This year at Blade Show I saw my knife, spec'd out just like the maker had said it would be.
Problem was it was sitting on a purveyors table! Oh well! Was I a bit peeved? Sure. I also got a good laugh at the same time. I didn't confront the maker, but he knew I saw it. Guess the purveyor was willing to pay more as my knife was ordered at the "Old price" and the purveyor most certainly paid the "new price".
Click to expand...

This is a different scenario and totally unacceptable, IMHO. I would write this maker's name in my shi$t list and cancel the order. Joss did not specify that he saw other med bowies made by his maker or was even really sure that he placed his order before anyone else. If I'm not mistaken med bowies are more difficult to make than most designs so I would cut the maker a little slack. Especially if you consider the maker a friend and want to continue to have an amicable relationship with him. In some cases knifemaking is an art and you can't rush that without compromising on the final results.

-Jose

-Jose
 
Joss,

Only you can decide whether the experience has soured you on the knife. The only time I have every really been soured on a knife is when the maker has been dishonest. Thankfully, that has been an extremely rare exception to the rule. With some makers, delivery time is when it is and any forecast is at best an optimistic guess. Not my favorite way to do business by far, but if I want the knife and like the maker I'll just sit tight and wait for the nice surprise sometime down the road.

I have also been in the position of seeing knives posted by others that I believed had been delivered by the maker ahead of my still-outstanding order. Information availability being what it is these days, I have often discovered that those knives were either in fact ordered before, or else purchased from the maker directly at a show, or from a third party such as a dealer or fellow collector. Needless to say, this un-steemed me significantly. Since this seems to be troubling you (and you candidly acknowledge that you can't be sure of the details) why not try to find out?

Anyway, I do wish you the best of luck and hope the situation resolves to your satisfaction.

Roger
 
I read down to Anthony's post and stopped. He hit the nail right on the head. I've had a lot of conversations with collectors that are fed up with the way some makers treat them. I've had similar things happen and I bet they're some of the same makers.

There is the saying "A squeaky wheel gets the grease". I constantly see knives show up from makers I have long standing orders with. I'm just not a guy to bug people to get results.

I know of one collector that returned a defective knife to a MS and he's still waiting for the replacement, years later. And it's paid for! Oh, the maker sent him a replacement knife that wasn't close to what he'd ordered.

Win
 
Win Heger said:
There is the saying "A squeaky wheel gets the grease". I constantly see knives show up from makers I have long standing orders with. I'm just not a guy to bug people to get results.
Click to expand...

I feel the same way. I'm a rather unobstrusive, discrete guy by nature, and the idea that I have to impose myself to get something makes the project quite a bit less appealing to me.
 
The best part of the whole thing was when the purveyor pulled the knife out of the case and said, "look at this one I just got, it is right up your alley."
It took everything I had not to explode!:rolleyes:
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
The best part of the whole thing was when the purveyor pulled the knife out of the case and said, "look at this one I just got, it is right up your alley."
It took everything I had not to explode!:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Indeed, you showed remarkable restraint.

Roger
 
See if this makes sense.

Some makers for various reasons NEEDED to be in my collection:

Baldwin, Phillip, because he is a close friend
Chappel, because he is mad genius
Fogg, Any questions?
Fuegen, Any questions?
Gaston, at one point, I think Ron made one of, if not the, finest finished knives in the business.
Imel
Jernigan
McBurnette
Pendray
Pease
Siska
Smith, John W.
Wheeler

I used some of these names and reasons to illustrate a point.

If it is that compelling to own the knife, for an important reason to you, wait, and apply more pressure, gently, as time progresses. Some makers will make you wait a while.

I had a knife on order with Al Pendray for three years, and I would have waited 9 to get it, if I had to. NOW, Al doesn't need my money, mind you, and he had 2, I think major hurricanes to contend with, as well as some other stuff, and I only waited 12 months past when he said he would have it for me.

If this maker is not in the "must have" category for YOU, walk on by, and don't look back. Professionalism and ability to deliver the goods is what largely defines a knifemaker in my book.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Coincidence that this thread comes RIGHT at the beginning of a new year. :)

Note to Important Knifemakers: NOW is the time to look back at your obligations and come clean in 2006. :thumbup:

I feel your pain.

Coop
 
Joss
If you've read my posting this week "Lost the Love for Knives" your situation is nearly identical to the problem I had with a maker. The maker actually called me and said the knife was finished, I sent the money, then heard every excuse possible why he didn't send the knife. I finally wrote a scathing e-mail to the individual and demanded my money back. Here it is a year later and that situation and another with a MS are what's turned me off to the knife business. It almost heartens me to hear others have had problems with makers. Perhaps I'm too demanding being a military man from the Midwest who's word is as good as gold. There are new exciting knifemakers I discover everyday--no one maker is going to wreck my love for knives. I simply will find another new favorite and write the other individual(s) off.
 
This post hits a raw nerve for sure and the issue being discussed is precisely why I don't, won't and never will again "place an order" for a custom knife.

Anthony - I don't think it's accurate of fair to single out ABS makers as your post implies, and maybe you didn't mean to. For the record, the absolute most criminal and egregious violation of ethics of which I personally have been the victim was at the hands of a very well known non-ABS maker of fine art folders.

Fortunately, the other side of the coin is more positive. I'll specifically mention three examples:
- The only 'order' I've placed since getting burned as described above was with Tai Goo. He did exactly what he said he would do, on time and without any talk about how busy he was etc. He is very professional, disciplined in his work habits, more talented than most - and above all knows himself well in terms of what can be accomplished in a given amount of time. He won't promise what he can't deliver and I have absolutely the utmost respect for him!
- Bailey Bradshaw - I bought a knife from Bailey at a show and he said he'd like to add some engraving. I'd paid for the knife and was looking forward to taking it home. Reluctantly I yielded it back to him, trusting him not let it sit around in his shop for a long time. Bailey did the work and got the knife back to me right away, thus earning a measure of trust from me. Subsequently, at another show, I saw a partially completed project on his table that interested me. We struck a deal but I was nervous it would take forever for him to finish it. Again Bailey rewarded my trust by promptly finishing the project and delivering it into my hands. Praise be to Bailey Bradshaw!
- Rick Eaton - I bought a beautiful folding dagger from Rick. Somehow the finish was altered and degraded through contact with my hand. I asked Rick about it but specifically said I felt it was my fault and that I wasn't expecting him to fix it. Instead he said, "I should have warned you that the finish was somewhat delicate." He insisted I send the knife to him. I was very nervous to do so fearing I'd not see it again for a long time. Rick refinished the knife promptly and returned it to me looking even more beautiful than when I'd purchased it! Needless to say I was way impressed that a maker of his undisupted world-class stature would take the time to do this when he didn't have to - and for someone like me who is but a tiny little dot on his radar screen!

There is no collective answer to the problem Joss highlights - only the chance for individual makers to adhere to high standards and organizations like the ABS and the Guild to set appropriate expectations and guidelines for its members. Collectors can and do vote with their dollars, share their experiences with eachother and more openly on the internet - and that is a good thing!

Although it's tempting, I am reluctant to engage in any 'negative' on the internet by naming names of those makers who fail the integrity test. It's frustrating to feel I have to hold back, especially since in my professional world of medicine, if I practiced with the same ethic as some of the knifemakers I've encountered I'd be stripped of my license, dragged into court and have my transgressions published in the newspaper and on the state board of medical examiners' web-site. And if anyone is thinking, "Well there's a big difference between practicing medicine and making knives" I wouldn't disagree - but that's no excuse for a lack of integrity. There is no excuse for a lack of integrity!

Joss, I feel for you buddy. You've been put between a rock and a hard place by someone and it's not fair. There's no easy way out. My answer (for me personally) was to not place orders. But if you think about it that's a compromise solution at best because it seriously limits my ability to pursue my knife-collecting hobby. Such is life. As long as there is more good than bad I guess I'll stay in the game.

But - imagine how many folks are driven away from the custom knife world by even one bad experience. Happens all the time. That hurts us all, makers and collectors alike. As a collector I wish the secondary market for pre-owned custom knives was far stronger than it is. I could more easily evolve my collection by selling off some things to buy new things with less chance of taking a financial hit in the process. Unfortunately many potential newcomers are scared off, soured, blown off or offended early in their experience and never come back.

In fact it was an esteemed ABS mastersmith, Steve Schwarzer, who pulled me aside and warned me about this. He said, "When people realize you're buying knives a few of of them will try and take advantage of you. I've seen many good folks driven away by that kind of behavior and I'd hate to see it happen to you. Never be afraid to say 'no' or 'I'm full right now' or draw the line at anything that makes you uncomfortable." Steve is another maker for whom I have the utmost respect and I will be forever grateful for his wise council. He didn't know it but his timing was perfect as I was still in shock that a maker (as described near the top of this reply) had just tried to rip me off for over ten grand! That's a lot of bread. Fortunately, I was able to catch the errant maker red-handed and effect a full pay-back... with interest! Grrrrrr. Boy, I'd just love to step on that person's air hose for 5 or 6 minutes!
 
Hercules said:
... your situation is nearly identical to the problem I had with a maker. The maker actually called me and said the knife was finished, I sent the money, then heard every excuse possible why he didn't send the knife.
Click to expand...

No money has changed hands, it's a very different situation.
 
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