Order in limbo experience - your advice

With some makers, ABS stands for American Bullshi$t Society
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Anthony - I don't think it's accurate of fair to single out ABS makers as your post implies, and maybe you didn't mean to. For the record, the absolute most criminal and egregious violation of ethics of which I personally have been the victim was at the hands of a very well known non-ABS maker of fine art folders.
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Hi Buddy.
Thats why I said SOME makers. Since Joss's knife is a forged blade and I am guessing the maker is an ABS member I threw that in. Every organization has an equal share of bad apples. Unfortunately, the ABS doesn't seem to have any type of real ethics committe or ethical guidelines for JS or MS members like the Guild does.

As repeat customers, we internet folk need to be more vocal about posting BAD experiences on forums such as GB&U. A lot of the nonsense out there really has to stop but as long and as we let them get away with it, it won't.

More and more often I am buying knives at shows or in person. That way fit & finish, price and "feel" are not an unknown.

I only have a handful of orders out there right now and probably will not place anymore unless it is someone that I have a personal friendship with.
 
Thanks all. STeven, Anthony, & Buddy in particular have articulated well some thoughts that were already bubbling in my head. What I'm going to do is take a relaxed approach to the experience. If the knife never comes, well, so be it. If it does, it will be a nice surprise. I'm going to keep on reminding the maker every quarter or two but not involve myself emotionally for the moment. If one day the maker has an appropriate substitute at a show I attend, I'll buy it and forget about the order.

When I look at my collection, I can't help but notice that the pieces that give me the most pleasure are pieces I was lucky to buy already made rather than custom order. That has to mean something...
 
I would personally contact the maker and give him a deadline. This may be something that will anger the maker, but I collect knives, not money in my bank account (just ask my wife), and do not want to keep funds put aside forever while I wait.

I am a very patient person and have waited a long time for knives. Sometimes the wait is because the maker gave me a very long estimated delivery time. I have no problem with this. When given a long delivery time I at least have the information in front of me and can decide if the knife I want is one that I am willing to wait that length of time to get. Sometimes the wait has been because of unavoidable circumstances. This is not a problem for me either; as long as I am kept informed. Life happens. However, I will not wait forever.

To this point in my knife collecting, I have never run into a maker that has BSed me, and have never had to wait more than six months past an estimated delivery time. From the sounds of it, I have been lucky.

Joss, if you feel the reasons being given you for the delay are reasonable, and you have no problem waiting, then do so. You should however point out your disappointment to the maker and let him know that you are only prepared to wait a certain amount of time. Sometimes if you allow a maker to put off delivery for a long time the maker will not feel an urgency in getting the knife done. They have to be informed that time is running out and that your patience is wearing thin. Otherwise another year will pass and you still won't have your knife.

I would not bug the maker every couple of weeks. I would contact him and let him know that I expect the knife by a certain date and require that he let me know if it will be done by then. Tell him if he can not get it done by then that although you want the knife very much, that with regret you have to cancel the order. Let him know that you do not want this to burn bridges, and that you may want to get a knife from him in the future, but that you just can't wait any longer. He should understand your situation.
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
As repeat customers, we internet folk need to be more vocal about posting BAD experiences on forums such as GB&U. A lot of the nonsense out there really has to stop but as long and as we let them get away with it, it won't.
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This is something I agree with totally, but feel that many are afraid to post there bad experiences for fear of angering the maker and his maker friends. I have seen threads in the GB&U forum where when someone complained about the service provided by a maker, his buddies come in and say that if the poster is going to be such a whiner that he should not bother ordering a knife from them. This really intimidates people. So does the fact that all the makers supporters will quite often get together and tar and feather the poster.

Personally, if I ever get screwed around by a maker, people are going to know about it. If I have to take heat from the groupies, so be it. I think it important that people know about bad experiences with makers.
 
Those not having the passion burning brightly within them will fall by the wayside due to negative experiences of this type.

It is not the way it should be, but it is the way it is. That is a big reason why the collector population is not growing at an exponential rate.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
So do you post? Not post? What a dilemma... :o

Just kidding. I knew immediately I'd be replying when I saw this thread. I haven't gone and looked for any emails to go with it yet. The one thing that did catch me off though, is the fact that people are talking about being ripped off.

While I readily admit to NOT having any organizational skills, I have NEVER ripped anyone off...

Oh, just to clarify... obviously I am the maker in question.

There are several guys on here that have knives on order with me that are late. None of the knives are late due to a lack of excitement to do them (on my part) it's just always one thing or another coming up here that interfere, and I end up even more behind. It's an exponential equation... you start off getting two weeks behind, and suddenly find yourself months behind. Because of my living situation, I am always the "go to guy" since "Nick can go help anytime." I end up being the one that "doesn't have to be at work, since he doesn't have a real job" A quick solution would be to move again, but I don't know if I could afford to, and then I'd end up getting a "real job" and probably not making knives for awhile.

I'm NOT making excuses. I am not good at keeping my knifemaking run as an organized business. BUT!!!! Please be clear that this results in me being slow but NOT NOT NOT in me trying to screw someone over.

I am really struggling to remedy it at this point. I am far enough behind, that my eyes are floating in it. Then I start worrying about getting my Js knives wrapped up, and having knives for Reno and the Blade show...... on and on, goes the worrying.

I read Jerry Fisk's hand-book for knifemaking as a business, but I think I failed when I tried to implement it :o *big "DUH" inserted here*

It seems that I have built this rep that people say things like, "Well, his knives are almost perfect...but don't hold your breath on getting one."


That's really not a good rep to be pushing, nor the way I wish to project myself.




So what am I doing about it?


I have totally reworked my shop, TOTALLY... in an effort to make the work-flow much more fluent. I have also been working on writing up one, three, and five year goal/plans.... to not only get away from being behind, but to get people saying that I am one of the best there is.

To address the specific point of Joss's knife. I still think it's a fabulous idea for an amazing knife. I always have... I just haven't gotten the knife made yet.

So since you're reading this... PLEASE understand that I am slow getting knives made (I looked through my shop notes, and realized that I've only finished about 8 knives this year that went to orders or shows, and most of those had been started long ago. And I haven't made ANYTHING new in months, due to everything that's been going on around here). BUT I am not now, or EVER trying to be some scum-bag ripping people off.


Well, I better quit before I dig the hole TOOOO deep.


Thanks :)
 
Nick, I applaud your honesty (and bravery) for addressing this head on.

You make great knives, have some ecstatic customers and have a lot to be proud of.

I have one suggestion, though. Immediately stop taking any new orders until you get caught up and once you do get caught up, start making the knives that YOU want to make, not knives where the parameters are dictated by the customer. I am pretty sure you won't have a problem selling them and you will be the happier for it.

I think anything longer than a one-year delivery time for a handmade knife is pretty silly unless the maker is part-time, has a huge international reputation or is making art that costs several thousand per blade.

I have seen a lot of talented makers come and go because they OVERPROMISED and UNDERDELIVERED.
 
I'm re-reading my posts. I think I've been clear that no one has tried to rip me off. Nick's business methods are a mess, but he's not been dishonest with me.

Nick - it seems to me that you're over complicating some things. Unless the rules in Reno have changed, it's perfectly OK to have only one or 2 simple knives for sale, and for the others to be already sold, or reserved for an ultimate use, etc. So you could have some of your JS knives in Reno, along with a couple very simple knives (full tang + 2 slabs). Similarly, I would think that if you have several knives on order for which you are late, those could be good candidates for your ABS JS test. Obviously, not those with damascus, but unless the customer specifically wants damascus, I'm sure they'd be willing to trade for earlier delivery + the aura of a JS test.

In fact, in your situation, I would absolutely use whatever commission can be used for your JS tests. I know some people would like to buy those, but at this point there are others who've been waiting much longer. If you have already partially completed your JS test knives and none of them fits any of your longstanding orders (hard to imagine), you might consider offering those for sale in priority to the people who've been waiting the longest.

In short, I think that if you used your longstanding orders as a guideline for your JS knives, and limited the "for sale at show" to 1, 2 or 3 super-simple 3-piece knives (with whatever completed JS knife being on display at both show, but not for sale), you would be on your way to satisfy your orders.

In any case, keep track of the order of your commissions. It should simply never happen to have some more recent commissions completed before long standing orders. There's no excuse for this.
 
Well, I have an order in with Nick, but he warned me about how long it would take and that his business organization skills were bad. Since my knife isn't due for a couple of years, I doubt that any that have been commisioned after mine have been delivered.

Nick, I don't think I did, but if I in any way made it seem that the person (you) being discussed in the original post was a ripoff artist, I apologize. Hopefully all your efforts will help in getting your organizational skills up to a level you and your customers will be happy with.

Shows are important and having knives on the table that can be sold is a must. That is the only way you can pay for going to the shows, and they can be quite expensive. I do feel that a maker has to be careful about the order in which he delivers commisioned knives. Unlike some, I do feel that repeat customers should get a bit of a break on their delivery time, but other than that commisioned knives should go out in the order that they are received. Also, a maker has to be careful about how they handle repeat customers, because they can't just keep moving new customers to the back of the line every time an old customer wants another knife. That is where organizational skills are a must.

Good luck Nick, I only want the best for you and hope that you are able to succeed at your business plan sorted out.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Good luck Nick, I only want the best for you and hope that you are able to succeed at your business plan sorted out.
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AMEN.

We love you Nicky! But you are a royal pain in the @ss!

I doubt that any other maker has more people rooting for him than Nick Wheeler. But EIGHT knives in a year? Who do you think you are, Russ Andrews or Michael Conner? Seriously, it is time to ramp up your production to one or even, dare I say, two knives a month!

I have reached the point of not worrying too much about Nick's delivery times. They will be done, when they are done.
And it is amusing to bust his chops every once in while, to check on his supposed progress.

Hang in there baby! And BTW, while we are on the subject... ...how are my orders coming? :eek:

Best,
Peter

Of course his knives are worth waiting for:


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Hang in there Nick.
I wonder how long Monet's waiting list was.
Randy
 
Hey Nick,

Good of you to step up like you did. You are hardly the first maker to get overwhelmed by back-orders, but this early in your career you definitely want to take corrective steps. Some good suggestions have been made.

I have heard it said more than once (though I think it was first from Les) that there is a "critical mass" that a maker needs to produce in order to stay current in the public eye, improve his position in the market and support the value of his existing knives. That number is certainly somewhat variable and I don't pretend to know what it is, but it is surely larger than 8 knives per year.

I do sincerely hope that you are able to take the organizational steps needed to get things on track. You have a teremendous amount of skill and talent - that much is evident to anyone who has handled one of your knives.

Roger

PS - per Joss' suggestion, if you want to turn my order out for your JS test, feel free to render the fittings in something other than damascus. You NEED to get 5 knives done for Atlanta.

Roger
 
Nick,
Thanks for the Email.Looking forward to seeing ya' get your JS stamp. :)
 
nifrand said:
Hang in there Nick.
I wonder how long Monet's waiting list was.
Randy
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It wasn't as long as Wheeler's list! That is for sure. LOL!
 
I also appluad Nick for his versatility and simple honesty with this. He didn't make any justifiable excuses, and THAT would be hard not to do.

I also got an email with an update on my own order, but I will admit when I wrote my first response I did NOT know who the target was.

I want knives of quality and prefer a maker with integrity. I'm that much closer with Nick Wheeler. :)

Coop
 
I just wanted to thank you folks for posting. I got a couple notes from people apologizing, saying they didn't know I was the person in question.

There is definitely no need for that! It doesn't matter if any of the posters knew it was me or not, the subject matter has been very good, and Joss got some really good advice.

This thread has been a giant kick in the butt, for me to wake up and fully realize that just because I'm not ripping anybody off, does not equate to me keeping people happy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Excuses really wouldn't do me much good... I could make them, but my Dad has been involved in some of the same crap that's held me up, but he's managed to go to work everyday and earn a pay-check... so that would be a weak foundation for any argument.

One of my favorite quotes of all time is from a powerlifter, and he was talking about doing squats and having strong legs... but it works for ANYTHING in life, especially building a rep as a great bladesmith.... ~"You can't fire a cannon from a canoe."~

I have been trying to tie up some loose ends, and make sure I'm in contact with everyone who has put their trust in me for a knife (or several :) ).

So, before I ramble on forever, I just wanted to say THANKS, that this thread was a good shove in the right direction :D

I was going to make a joke about me reading this in my pajamas, and if that would make me like Michael Jackson in his big trial, but decided that was in even worse taste than I normally exhibit! ;) :p :)
 
Walking Man said:
Maybe you should just ask this maker point blank if he ever intendes to do the bowie
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Joss said:
I've done that already in the past, in a polite way. I could do that again, more forcefully yet without confrontation.
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Joss said:
I'm a rather unobtrusive, discrete guy by nature
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For a guy who is politely unobtrusive while being discrete and forceful without confrontation (don't forget humble), you sure do whine a lot!

If you are so butt-hurt by not receiving this knife, let me have your place in line. I don't have any problems getting knives from Nick. He sends me 2-3 knives every month!
 
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