Origin of the traditional Marine Corps "Kabar" Design?

[Brews_N_Ale]

Have always been a huge fan of the USMC fighting knife but I know nothing of its history. recently I was perusing some old hunting knives and stumbled on some Wade&Butcher hunting knives that made me think hmmm.
BTW, this is my inaugural post. joined up specifically to ask this question. didn't see a new member thread so I figured I'd just jump right in. I have, however, scoured this forum in past searches on various blade related quests and have been impressed with the collective knowledge base.
just an old retired Marine who likes knives. just a user who refuses to get rid of anything so I guess I'm a collector by default. thanks in advance.

 

[Wurrwulf]

Welcome to The Porch!

If I remember correctly, the "KA-BAR" (as we think of it now) came into being in 1942 to replace the Mark I which had received criticism for its thin blade stock and bulky handle guard. It became beloved by troops in WWII and later saw use in following wars. Multiple manufacturers made the Mark II (or something similar) when KA-BAR couldn't keep up with production demands.

Others more knowledgeable, please correct what I've gotten incorrect.

 

[Brews_N_Ale]

Welcome to The Porch!

If I remember correctly, the "KA-BAR" (as we think of it now) came into being in 1942 to replace the Mark I which had received criticism for its thin blade stock and bulky handle guard. It became beloved by troops in WWII and later saw use in following wars. Multiple manufacturers made the Mark II (or something similar) when KA-BAR couldn't keep up with production demands.

Others more knowledgeable, please correct what I've gotten incorrect.

Thanks Man!
as is my luck, After I posted this query I stumbled on a Wiki article that mentioned Westerns [l-76 and 77 were the ones I recall] as inspiration, and It did mention the Mk 1's deficits as an impetus for the creation of a Mk 2, but I am always skeptical of any wiki source. the blood grooves on the Wade & Butchers was what prompted my search.

 

[joeradza]

Have always been a huge fan of the USMC fighting knife but I know nothing of its history. recently I was perusing some old hunting knives and stumbled on some Wade&Butcher hunting knives that made me think hmmm.
BTW, this is my inaugural post. joined up specifically to ask this question. didn't see a new member thread so I figured I'd just jump right in. I have, however, scoured this forum in past searches on various blade related quests and have been impressed with the collective knowledge base.
just an old retired Marine who likes knives. just a user who refuses to get rid of anything so I guess I'm a collector by default. thanks in advance.

Welcome. I recently picked one up from 1944-45. Send me a message on my profile page or I will and I'll give you a link.

 

[joeradza]

B Brews_N_Ale I left a link on your profile page.

 

[screened porch]

My recollection is that Camillus developed it with the Navy as the MarkII Navy, the knife became associated with the Marines, and a lot of the Marine MarkIIs were made by Ka-bar.

 

[Brews_N_Ale]

B Brews_N_Ale I left a link on your profile page.

thanks man!

 

[Buzzbait]

My recollection is that Camillus developed it with the Navy as the MarkII Navy, the knife became associated with the Marines, and a lot of the Marine MarkIIs were made by Ka-bar.

I remember something similar about Camillus originating the design.

 

[Hickory n steel]

I always heard it was based on a turn off the century Union cutlery design.
There's always the story where it was used to Kill A BeAR
And since that's all that could be read in the mans letter that's what they called it and this eventually became the companies name.
I suppose this is just an unconfirmed tale though.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Ooohh... so many misconceptions in one thread.

The USN-MK2/USMC 1219C2 were originally based on the Kabar 7" No.71 hunting knife.

The final specs were approved in Dec 1942. The first order shipped were about 50K knives made/shipped by Camillus in January 1943, which were delivered to the US Navy in February 1943. This was the only batch made to the original specs with a screw-on pommel locked in with split nut.

Kabar shipped the first ones to the USMC in April 1943. This batch adhered to the first change order - no split nut / thick pommel w/ round peened tang.

Other changes followed - squared peened tang, thin pinned pommel, marks transferred to the guard, bent guard.

4 companies made the MK2/1219C2 - Camillus, Kabar, PAL and Robeson-Suredge. Camillus made approx 2 million, Kabar made about 1 million. IIRC, PAL made about 100K and R-S about 50K. That's why the last 2 are so hard to find - not as many made.

There was no USN - MK1 prior to WW2. That knife did not have the detailed specs that the MK2 had developed. The MK1 was simply a 5" bladed hunting knife. 8 or 9 companies made the MK1. True WW2 MK1s are stamped USN MK1. Many other 5" knives were sold/donated/given to the military before the US cutlery companies ramped up to make the numbers needed by the military. Prior to the war, if a sailor needed a fixed blade knife, he bought his own.

 

[Brews_N_Ale]

I always heard it was based on a turn off the century Union cutlery design.
There's always the story where it was used to Kill A BeAR
And since that's all that could be read in the mans letter that's what they called it and this eventually became the companies name.
I suposup this is just an unconfirmed take though.

Thanks for that. I'll have to give it a look. I'm kind of on a quest to find the Hunting Knife "Ancestor" that prompted the design. . . if it indeed exists.
I've been looking Mostly at Wade & Butcher, and Marbles. I always though Western was just making Marbles knock off's so I didn't even look there until I saw the Wiki. Union is another Company I didn't know about.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Here's the post from an earlier MK2 discussion --- with the 7" No. 71

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/usn-mki-deck-knife.1590819/#post-18179215

 

[Hickory n steel]

Thanks for that. I'll have to give it a look. I'm kind of on a quest to find the Hunting Knife "Ancestor" that prompted the design. . . if it indeed exists.
I've been looking Mostly at Wade & Butcher, and Marbles. I always though Western was just making Marbles knock off's so I didn't even look there until I saw the Wiki. Union is another Company I didn't know about.

They eventually changed their name to kabar from what I've been told, can't recall when though.

If zzyzzogeton says it was based on a Kabar no.71 then that's what I'd try to find a picture of one ( I could not) because he really knows his stuff.

 

[peanutsxx]

Have always been a huge fan of the USMC fighting knife but I know nothing of its history. recently I was perusing some old hunting knives and stumbled on some Wade&Butcher hunting knives that made me think hmmm.
BTW, this is my inaugural post. joined up specifically to ask this question. didn't see a new member thread so I figured I'd just jump right in. I have, however, scoured this forum in past searches on various blade related quests and have been impressed with the collective knowledge base.
just an old retired Marine who likes knives. just a user who refuses to get rid of anything so I guess I'm a collector by default. thanks in advance.

I have no knowledge to impart, only wish to welcome you to The Porch. So many great people here. Semper Fi, Marine.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Union Cutlery started using the KABAR stamp around 1923 or so. They changed the company name to KABAR in 1951.

H&S - a lot of what I have learned about Kabar history comes from THE Kabar expert - gunsil. Gene knows more about Kabar's history than Kabar does. w/ a half quote from Will Sonnet - "..., just fact"

 

[Brews_N_Ale]

Ooohh... so many misconceptions in one thread.

The USN-MK2/USMC 1219C2 were originally based on the Kabar 7" No.71 hunting knife.

The final specs were approved in Dec 1942. The first order shipped were about 50K knives made/shipped by Camillus in January 1943, which were delivered to the US Navy in February 1943. This was the only batch made to the original specs with a screw-on pommel locked in with split nut.

Kabar shipped the first ones to the USMC in April 1943. This batch adhered to the first change order - no split nut / thick pommel w/ round peened tang.

Other changes followed - squared peened tang, thin pinned pommel, marks transferred to the guard, bent guard.

4 companies made the MK2/1219C2 - Camillus, Kabar, PAL and Robeson-Suredge. Camillus made approx 2 million, Kabar made about 1 million. IIRC, PAL made about 100K and R-S about 50K. That's why the last 2 are so hard to find - not as many made.

There was no USN - MK1 prior to WW2. That knife did not have the detailed specs that the MK2 had developed. The MK1 was simply a 5" bladed hunting knife. 8 or 9 companies made the MK1. True WW2 MK1s are stamped USN MK1. Many other 5" knives were sold/donated/given to the military before the US cutlery companies ramped up to make the numbers needed by the military. Prior to the war, if a sailor needed a fixed blade knife, he bought his own.

Thanks! Knew this was the right place to look! now to search for a No. 71!

 

[315]

All of you are completely wrong. The first Kabar fighting knife was invented by a Marine Sgt. He needed a combat knife so he pulled out one of his leg bones and shaped it into a blade. Then they heated it with the fire coming out of a Gunnery Sgt’s eyes and quenched the red hot blade in the blood of a Corporal. Finally the Sgt Maj tore a strip of hide off the rear end of a Private and wrapped the leather around it's handle....That’s where the Kabar came from Semper Fi Devil Dog

 

[edbeau]

315, I will check on your story when I go to work tomorrow at MCAS Beaufort. I work with a few Marines.

 

[Hickory n steel]

Union Cutlery started using the KABAR stamp around 1923 or so. They changed the company name to KABAR in 1951.

H&S - a lot of what I have learned about Kabar history comes from THE Kabar expert - gunsil. Gene knows more about Kabar's history than Kabar does. w/ a half quote from Will Sonnet - "..., just fact"

Well you're definitely THE MAN when it comes to westerns.

 

[knarfeng]

---

Well you're definitely THE MAN when it comes to westerns.

zzyzzogeton is one of the posters I look for when searching out information. He definitely knows his stuff.