OT: Caos in San Francisco. Stupid protesters.

Eik a few questions, yes Spain, Israel, Britain, etc... have known terrorism first hand, but just because they know what does that have to do with the French, German, or even Norwegian experience. And ironlically, Spain, Israel, and Britain are all in support of the US.

And you know what, the great thing about the US is that it allows immigrants, and as such many people here in the US have views and life experiences beyond what has gone on here in the US. That for me as the son of an immigrant that is one of the reasons I love this country. Things arent perfect, but when I hear the horror stories from other Filipinos who made the mistake of moving to European countries in which they are denied basic human rights and treated like slaves, I thank god that my parents moved here. My dad was a child during the Japanese occupation of the Philippines. He felt first hand the atrocities of occupation, and he was the first one to say later in his life that the US was one of the most humanitarian countries in this world. In my stupider days, when I would criticize the US, he would be the first to scold me, and say look at other countries, where else could you find the opportunity that the US gives you, the equality that the US gives you. He had the chance to spend his final days in the Philippines, the land of his birth, but he made the decision to come back to the US, and be buried in the land of his adopted birth.
 
Beoram, I congratulate you. You are disagreeing very well without being disagreeable, and that is very hard to do.

Actually, I hope that after this conflict, the US pulls out of the UN altogether. It no longer serves any useful purpose that I can see.
 
Wow - pretty civil debate.

This whole issue frustrates me. I'm pretty sure that the motives on all sides - pro and anti war in all of the various nations, corporations, and other groups - aren't very clear. That goes for both average well-informed people who are following the news and the policy makers who have access to all the reports, intelligence, etc. I also can't separate the "noble" goals - liberating the Iraqi people, ending a source of terrorism, etc, - from the obvious secondary benefit that Iraq's oil resources will be much more accessible if we do topple Sadam Hussein's regime.

Regarding the UN - I see the US in a very delicate position in the world. We have far more military and economic clout than any other individual nation, and more than many combination of nations. However, we cannot take on the entire world. Numerous events, up to and including the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks, should show us that we cannot protect against all possible events. It's a classic conflict - arms versus armor. In the middle ages, you had chain mail, then plate mail until guns came along. Today, the Israeli army has some of the best armored tanks in the world, yet the right mine or sufficient explosives turn then into coffins. Arms usually win, and I'm convinced that a martial stance cannot end all deaths from terrorism (YMMV). IMHO, the UN provides a useful forum where all countries can feel they have a voice, and have their interests at least considered. The US will get farther by compromising and addressing the insecurities of other countries than by doing exactly what we want, and exactly what is in our immediate best interests. We do not want to shout "Let them eat cake" - the world will eventually get fed up and put us out of their misery.

I have some doubts about going to war with Iraq. There are some potential benefits (many of which won't be apparent if we win - like preventing a major terrorist incident). There are also some major problems, both for the US and the Iraqi people, whether we win, lose, or sit on our thumbs. I just pray that the people who can see most of the cards come to a resonable decision.

Regarding San Francisco - If you get enough people together, there's bound to be a few idiots. Sitting in suburbia, with the TV as your primary means of experiencing life, doesn't help matters any. Eventually, your brain starts to look like that piece of cheese in the back of my fridge. :rolleyes:

Finally, as long as there are American boots with American feet on foreign sands, I support everything that will help them complete their mission safely and return home.

(edited to add SF comment)
 
Originally posted by Federico
Eik a few questions, yes Spain, Israel, Britain, etc... have known terrorism first hand, but just because they know what does that have to do with the French, German, or even Norwegian experience. And ironlically, Spain, Israel, and Britain are all in support of the US.
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Allright, I see the need for some explanations from me.

What I meant to point out with Spain, Israel and Britian is that terrorism never caused them to bang the drums of war and whip the citizenry into a battle fever. Israel have contained themselves from using their military might, the USA does not. Spain could easily have invaded the Pyrenee mountains and easily have spanked some poor mountain farmers' asses, but they didn't.

I just meant to point out the difference of reaction.

Support for war in Iraq:
I know some Spanish people. They hate Muslims. Spain was invaded you know by Muslims, they still haven't forgotten. Say Muslim in Spain and you will see some Spanish eyes glowing with hate. USA has never been invaded so it is a bit hard to understand perhaps.
The Italians hate Muslims as well.

And Israel, well... I will say no more...

Britain... I could have misunderstood, but as I know it the British citizens feel that Blair is behaving like a trained poodle, and Blair is currently facing the problem of his re-election.


Originally posted by Federico

Things arent perfect, but when I hear the horror stories from other Filipinos who made the mistake of moving to European countries in which they are denied basic human rights and treated like slaves, I thank god that my parents moved here...

...In my stupider days, when I would criticize the US, he would be the first to scold me, and say look at other countries, where else could you find the opportunity that the US gives you, the equality that the US gives you.
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In Scandinavia we do something differently, we don't give immigrants equal value as ourselves. We give immigrants a higher value than a native.

If I am out of work I will get a minimum to live by in welfare. An immigrant though gets a full year salary, and that is a full year salary without a job. And he will get that for several years.

He also gets a free apartment for his pretty big family. If I am without an apartment and out of work I do not get an apartment.

In Denmark 3. world immigrants constitute 5% of the population. They have a twice as high rate of being unemployed as the Danes, but however they receive 35% of Denmark's total welfare support payments by the similair arrangement as I mentioned for Norway above.

Denmark had up through the 80ies and 90ies many immigrants pouring in who did not wish to travel to Canada, Australia or USA. They conciously chose away those countries because they knew they would face harder terms there. Denmark was then renowned as the best place in the world to emigrate to. This because they knew about the ease of gaining a high material standard there by doing nothing.


In Norway 1 immigrant has been killed because he had dark skin. This while 30 Norwegians have been killed because they were something immigrants call "white potatoes".

Also we now have this wonderful new thing called gang rape of Norwegian, Swedish and Danish girls.

Oh, not to forget. Some Turks wished to try a purification of a Danish city some years ago to make it all Turkish. But they were stopped by the police. Now all the Danes there are struggling to get enough money to move out.

I feel pretty safe to say that in Scandinavia we do not treat our immigrants badly. I know you did not specially attack Scandinavia, but just to show that Europe is not one single unit. And that there are, at least according to the immigrants, better places than USA to emigrate to.
 
Frederico

The part of my post where I added something about rapes and murders looks unserious. But I just wanted to add it since you spoke about immigrants in some European countries being treated like slaves and not given equal rights, and so I thought to show how the situation is kind of different in some places. Here the immigrants are the ones who are doing the most severe bad treatment of the other part.
 
Everyone's got the right to their own opinion.

I don't claim to have the full information with which I'd feel confident to make a decision.

I like the way Beoram puts things.

I admire those such as Sarge willing to trust that their mission is worthwhile and are ready to do it whatever it turns out to be.

I also remember the rhetoric coming out of Selma and parts of the south sounding much like Eikervaering's points.

Federico, when I grew up in Tahoe, there were no blacks there, but there were Filipinos. Serving only in certain limited roles. That was wrong, plain and simple.

What's right in the world, I can't say. What I can do today is to try not to harm those I come in contact with and listen and treat others as my equals.

If that fails, I can always follow the below Rx - insert 158 grains Pb, preferably in LSWCHP+P form, repeat as needed.

Oh, what the hell. I'll post it anyway even if it is rambling all over the place.
 
Eik since when has Britain, Israel, or Spain not come down hard on terrorists? Theyve gotten lotsa flack because of it. Dont you remember the Barcelona Olympics, lotsa news about Spain cracking down on Basques to have a happy Olympics? Britain has adopted some very stringent laws to combat IRA attacks, ever see the movie In the Name of My Father? And we're all familiar with Israeli reaction to terrorism. However, all that is neither here or there, what does thier experiences have to do with other European experiences, are they truly analagous to the current situation?

As for Scandanavia and immigration, I only know a few things that I hear now and then when it pops up in the news. Wasnt an anti-immigrant candidate recently assaninated in Norway, or was it Denmark? Anyways, I was going to post some very derogatory stories that one hears on Philippine news stations about the conditions of Filipino workers in various parts of this world, particularly Europe, but that really wouldnt do anything to forward anything. Minority population percentages of such low numbers as %5 (most of which is very recent as many European countries didnt and some still dont allow immigration) dont really mean much to me, especially when compared to the US. For me immigration is not the importation of cheap labor to be exploited, but the naturalization of said immigrants. Or in other words I dont consider someone who cannot become a citizen of the country, as an immigrant. At best they are labor. Denial of citizenship only creates a second class of individuals, no matter how well they are treated. Anyways, there is also a difference in why people immigrate. Some people immigrate to make as much money as they can and then return home, while others immigrate so they can find a new home.

I dont mind dissenting opinion as long as its informed. Beo raises great points. I personally feel that un-informed protest only cheapens the right to free speech. Anyways, Ive been commenting, but have not stated my own opinion on the matter of the war. My own opinion towards the war, like most are mixed.
 
Frederico

Yes yes, they have all dealt with terrorists. They suffered many small attacks from inside aggressors while you a big one from an outside aggressor, that is different sure, but still fear and anger has turned to a heated patriotism that has made you come up with a "final solution". They lived with fear, anger and even hate for years, and yet did not allow themselves to fall into a strong patriotic fever and go to fully flegded war to make a "final solution".

Originally posted by Federico

However, all that is neither here or there, what does thier experiences have to do with other European experiences,
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???

Nothing that I am aware of or tried to state.

Originally posted by Federico

Wasnt an anti-immigrant candidate recently assaninated in Norway, or was it Denmark?
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The Netherlands, by a PC crazy, right before an election. It gave the anti-immigrants there a mighty updrift for the election. Likewise as a war will give terrorism a mighty updrift in the entire Muslim world.

Originally posted by Federico

Anyways, I was going to post some very derogatory stories that one hears on Philippine news stations about the conditions of Filipino workers in various parts of this world, particularly Europe, but that really wouldnt do anything to forward anything.
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I don't know Europe about this but Philippines have been and are employed a lot in the Norwegian merchant fleet. I hear they are very valued workers, and I bet being underpaid according to Norwegian standards.

We don't have many Philippines inside Norway. Only some women bought and paid by some Norwegian men as import goods unfortunately. But inside Norway each immigrant has one soliciter, one psychologist and a team of sociologists to help him out. Nothing to worry about here.

Originally posted by Federico

Minority population percentages of such low numbers as %5 (most of which is very recent as many European countries didnt and some still dont allow immigration) dont really mean much to me, especially when compared to the US.
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Well, to us 5% is the end of the world. Our nations were not built on immigration like USA. Over 70% of my population wishes an end to the immigration (last official poll) but the politically correct here have a stronghold with their fashionable words racism, xenophobia and nazism. Their public conclusion after the poll was that Norwegians still have a lot to learn in order to think correctly.

Originally posted by Federico

For me immigration is not the importation of cheap labor to be exploited, but the naturalization of said immigrants.
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Well that is a better attitude than my politicians have.

In Norway, sadly, the right wingers see immigrants as cheap labour. While the politically correct left wingers see immigrants as an excellent opportunity to show the world the greatness of our social democracy's cultural superiority by shaping our dear little dark skinned immigrants into perfect Norwegian copies! They say immigrants behave differently from us, but it isn't the poor little immigrants' fault of course as they come from the inferior 3. world anyway. You know, people from there have no mind nor will of their own. So if we just integrate them hard enough they will become human beings just like us.

I think this can be called politically correct racism. And yes, I am full of sarcasm for my PC racists.

Originally posted by Federico

Or in other words I dont consider someone who cannot become a citizen of the country, as an immigrant. At best they are labor. Denial of citizenship only creates a second class of individuals, no matter how well they are treated.
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Well, we can't have illegals pouring in. I think we have 20 000 illegals in Norway. Right before Christmas the police did Operasjon Advent where they did house searches and arrested some hundred of them and kicked them out. Still plenty left to do.

Correction:
They did not make house searches. It was restaurant searches in the kitchens of Oslo restaurants run by immigrants serving foreign food dishes. Legal immigrants in Norway like to keep their own immigrants as slave labour, sleeping on the floor of their kitchens and working cheaply.

Originally posted by Federico

Anyways, there is also a difference in why people immigrate. Some people immigrate to make as much money as they can and then return home, while others immigrate so they can find a new home.
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I do not know USA, but I have heard that USA tends to get the resourceful immigrants with some education or at least the willingness to build a nation. And as I have heard, USA actually kicks out an immigrant who commits a crime.

It is totally different here. Here we take in those who are non resourceful. This because then our wonderful PCs get to tell us how great we are. And we do not kick criminal immigrants out, as it is not their fault that they are inferior. They are allowed to stay and continue what they do of crime while a team of sociologists have supportive talks with them so they can become like perfect us.

Yes, I am full of sarcasm for our racist PCs.

Originally posted by Federico

I dont mind dissenting opinion as long as its informed. Beo raises great points. I personally feel that un-informed protest only cheapens the right to free speech.
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I liked Beo's writings too. How intelligently a formed opinion for why a hasty action is always unwise.

I hope I have not been acting too uninformed. I try not to be, but I know that I am, just like everybody else.

Originally posted by Federico

Anyways, Ive been commenting, but have not stated my own opinion on the matter of the war. My own opinion towards the war, like most are mixed.
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Mine too. I see reasons for going to war. But not the reasons given by George Bush and his friends.
 
Beoram, I wouldn't worry about undermining the UN. The future may or may not hold a UN, but some form of international co-operation is inevitable. History is on your side there. Don't sweat the small stuff- like potentially one organization falling. Another will come.

I probably read the same CIA report you did about Iraq. Think of Iraq as an unstable candy store in a region and in a post 9-11 world we can't afford any longer. Saddam's were bearable to our shame before 9-11, afterwards the scale is so large, the potential for world catastrophy so immense we must act. Will it matter to anyone if a few devices go off around the globe, crippling the world's ecomony, if Saddam did not pull the trigger but only lent or sold the item? You know he pays the surviving family of Palistinian bombers money?
You know 4 million Iraqi's are in exile?

Allow yourself to be cynical about Iraq and our motives. Imagine the shock waves Iraq falling will have upon the Middle East- and to the ruling families of other semi dictatorships as they watch a flegling democracy take hold? Imagine what Korea will think, what any would be terrorist will think. Dangerous. Of course. Neccesary. You bet.


munk
 
A coworker of mine just sent me an email with some pictures I'd like to share. Apparently these guys infiltrated the marches and nobody figured them out. Look closely at the sign on the right...
 
In the second pic where there were two signs almost completely hiding the third, the one line of the third that could be read said don't bomb US. Wish I knew what the rest of the placard said.

(From an at the time 17 year old college kid at who welcomed Bobby Kennedy's presidential campaign train trip thru California after his defeat in Oregon by running up holding a sign near enough that he saw and commented on "Well, it's nice to see I'm welcomed here in - Southern Oregon?".

Ah the good old days when college kids could run amok.

Then the Iranian students at Fresno state started demonstrating against the Shaw, and next thing the revolutionaries were marching and going to trash & burn the computer lab.

Everything went fine until the forgotten students making up 30% of the campus ( the AGRICULTURE students ) showed up in between the computer lab and the marchers and just stood there. And from the way they held their pitchforks and leaned on their shovels ( maybe a set of hay hooks and a length or rope here and there ) it was pretty clear they weren't going to fade away into the night peaceably. Or without a smell either. They were wearing their shitkicker boots too.

The College President showed up and talked to the revolutionaries. Oddly enough he wasn't attacked, maybe because the wind kept whipping his jacket back and exposing his CCW revolver in his belt.

You know me, no reason to tell tall tails when the facts, properly stated, can be tailored into a real whopper no one believes and every word be true.
 
A while back, some of my relatives protested the actions of the government. They were called trouble makers, malcontents, and traitors. They were arrested and some were killed. But they believed in their cause and kept it up. Before long their neighbors joined in the protest. It eventually turned violent. Buildings were destroyed and many people on both sides of the issue were killed.

This happened in the 1770's around Boston. We call it the American Revolution.
 
It's still around, under the surface. And the Cantina is one of the better places to find it. It's called the American Spirit ( or sometime the human spirit - who cares what it's called as long as it's there? ).
 
A few years after the protesting malcontents and traitors overthrew the government, they found that the new government was even worse. It was under the control of wealthy landowners and merchants who had the power to tax the farmers and working class into debtor's prison, seize their property, and auction their families into indentured slavery.

They gathered up their friends, mostly veterans on the war, and marched on the courthouses.

They were eventually defeated by government forces and sentenced to hang.

However, due to overwhelming public support, they were pardoned and the politicians conceded to their demands and drafted a new document that would protect the citizens from abuse by the government.

This was the "Constitution of the United States"
 
“...a little rebellion now and then is a good thing... It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of the government."

Thomas Jefferson
 
A few years after the protesting malcontents and traitors overthrew the government, they found that the new government was even worse. >>

/Bunk


They did not find this. They found they were human, and attempted a letter of law that would surmount.



munk
 
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