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OT: Fitting in
- Thread starter Aardvark
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 1,413
Eric might let the car go easy, but I pity the poor guy who tries to get his hands on the daughter. Just remember he can close the #2, owns a whole ton of giant khuks, not to mention the 357 under the bed and boy does he have a temper when he needs one!!
And I suppose you might be right in the "fact" that there are few morally responsible people left in this country that "do onto others like you would have them do to you" is out the door.
Sad, very sad.
Aardvark: I usually apologize before I say something. I find it saves time, since I frequently end up apologizing anyway... (would put a smiley here, but silly computer won't let me)
I don't know, mamav. I am constantly surprised by the kindness of strangers, and I think there are still a lot of people who live by the Golden Rule. They just tend not to be in positions of influence or power, is all. Gee, I wonder why? (insert own smiley here)
I don't know, mamav. I am constantly surprised by the kindness of strangers, and I think there are still a lot of people who live by the Golden Rule. They just tend not to be in positions of influence or power, is all. Gee, I wonder why? (insert own smiley here)
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2003
- Messages
- 302
Hi, Dadao;
You made a number of points. Most I agree with, some I don't. Please forgive me for perhaps focusing too much on what I disagree with you on.
You wrote, "The truth about immigrants? Most immigrants are hard workers who take the crap jobs no one else wants, encourage their children to learn English and are desperate to learn it themselves, want to be in this country, appreciate and love this country, and do not take it for granted the way so many native-born Americans do. And despite all this, they still face discrimination every day. The ones who want special treatment are a tiny minority usually being manipulated by politicians and activists with their own political agendas."
Dadao, I think your positive comments characterizing immigrants are just as overly broad as those negative ones that have been provided.
Not all immigrants are equal, nor or all immigrant groups equal either, in their enthusiasm for learning English, or having their children learn it. I've witnessed enclaves within Los Angeles of certain groups of people that you would swear you were back in their native country of origin, where the residents there have been in place for the better part of two or three generations without learning English even passably well. And the high dropout rates of their children from school, and their poor academic acheivement as a whole is nearly endemic to the entire culture.
I am somewhat nervous about addressing this topic because I certainly don't want to be branded as a racist, which is the common outcome for an American-born caucasian who makes a negative statement about a non-caucasian ethnic group, regardless as to its truth.
But I find it just very interesting when I look at the success stories of Asian immigrants in America, specifically the Japanese, Indian, and Chinese from decades ago, and more recently the Viet-Namese, Thai, Laotians, Cambodians and Koreans, versus what can almost only be described as an academic and economic meltdown of the Hispanics who have come to America in recent decades.
Granted, Hispanics (at least in California) do take the jobs no one else would take (but only because they are there to take them, in my opinion), and they are generally very hard working people.
However, they seem to be on the slow side - for whatever reasons - in learning English, and in pushing their kids to excel in school. This has the direct and very significant effect of retarding their economic growth and realising "the American Dream", whatever that is.
You: We're a nation of immigrants. Why do we keep forgetting that?
Me: If I may be so bold. We don't forget that at all. This is why many of us get a case of the hips at certain cultures that can't seem to get on the band wagon and "pull their weight". Again, I can only speak as an upper middle class person (who was born very, very lower middle class into a family created by two people who were born into dirt poor families), but I kinda resent how much of my income goes to pay taxes to support services used in great abundance by people who basically pay no taxes outside of sales tax, and because of some cultural inhibitors, manage to keep their culture in a constant state of lower income.
My grandparents came to America with literally nothing. They insisted that English be learned and that was to be the only language spoken in the home. They pushed their kids to stay in school and do well. And then they pushed them to work hard and be successful.
Each generation of my family has done better than the previous. But I don't see this in the Hispanic community.
I see it in the Asian community. In fact, the Asians I've seen have a work ethic that puts everyone else to shame, near as I can tell.
I don't see an Asian husband and wife who work doing minimum wage manual labor raising kids who do minimum wage manual labor. I see their kids instead pulling damned near straight A's in school, damned near maxing their Stanford 9's and SAT's, pulling straight A's in college (normally in fields like computer science, medicine or engineering), and then making megabucks within five or ten years of graduation.
To me, this is the epitome of the American success story.
I don't see it with every immigrant group. Don't even see it among native born Americans.............
Don
You made a number of points. Most I agree with, some I don't. Please forgive me for perhaps focusing too much on what I disagree with you on.
You wrote, "The truth about immigrants? Most immigrants are hard workers who take the crap jobs no one else wants, encourage their children to learn English and are desperate to learn it themselves, want to be in this country, appreciate and love this country, and do not take it for granted the way so many native-born Americans do. And despite all this, they still face discrimination every day. The ones who want special treatment are a tiny minority usually being manipulated by politicians and activists with their own political agendas."
Dadao, I think your positive comments characterizing immigrants are just as overly broad as those negative ones that have been provided.
Not all immigrants are equal, nor or all immigrant groups equal either, in their enthusiasm for learning English, or having their children learn it. I've witnessed enclaves within Los Angeles of certain groups of people that you would swear you were back in their native country of origin, where the residents there have been in place for the better part of two or three generations without learning English even passably well. And the high dropout rates of their children from school, and their poor academic acheivement as a whole is nearly endemic to the entire culture.
I am somewhat nervous about addressing this topic because I certainly don't want to be branded as a racist, which is the common outcome for an American-born caucasian who makes a negative statement about a non-caucasian ethnic group, regardless as to its truth.
But I find it just very interesting when I look at the success stories of Asian immigrants in America, specifically the Japanese, Indian, and Chinese from decades ago, and more recently the Viet-Namese, Thai, Laotians, Cambodians and Koreans, versus what can almost only be described as an academic and economic meltdown of the Hispanics who have come to America in recent decades.
Granted, Hispanics (at least in California) do take the jobs no one else would take (but only because they are there to take them, in my opinion), and they are generally very hard working people.
However, they seem to be on the slow side - for whatever reasons - in learning English, and in pushing their kids to excel in school. This has the direct and very significant effect of retarding their economic growth and realising "the American Dream", whatever that is.
You: We're a nation of immigrants. Why do we keep forgetting that?
Me: If I may be so bold. We don't forget that at all. This is why many of us get a case of the hips at certain cultures that can't seem to get on the band wagon and "pull their weight". Again, I can only speak as an upper middle class person (who was born very, very lower middle class into a family created by two people who were born into dirt poor families), but I kinda resent how much of my income goes to pay taxes to support services used in great abundance by people who basically pay no taxes outside of sales tax, and because of some cultural inhibitors, manage to keep their culture in a constant state of lower income.
My grandparents came to America with literally nothing. They insisted that English be learned and that was to be the only language spoken in the home. They pushed their kids to stay in school and do well. And then they pushed them to work hard and be successful.
Each generation of my family has done better than the previous. But I don't see this in the Hispanic community.
I see it in the Asian community. In fact, the Asians I've seen have a work ethic that puts everyone else to shame, near as I can tell.
I don't see an Asian husband and wife who work doing minimum wage manual labor raising kids who do minimum wage manual labor. I see their kids instead pulling damned near straight A's in school, damned near maxing their Stanford 9's and SAT's, pulling straight A's in college (normally in fields like computer science, medicine or engineering), and then making megabucks within five or ten years of graduation.
To me, this is the epitome of the American success story.
I don't see it with every immigrant group. Don't even see it among native born Americans.............
Don
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 1,413
LA, eh
My son is stationed at the DLI in Monterey,CA. He has 2 friends, one is black, the other is Chinese. The chinese student invited Ed and the other guy down to LA for a long weekend, but his parents were so afraid of what the neighbors would say if they invited 2 not chinese boys to spend the night that were going to have to get a hotel and just visit. Around nebraska if you are indian or mexican you might as well just sit in a ditch. The people are so predjudiced even today it stinks. And don't even get me started on what the blacks have to face here.:grumpy:
So what can we all do to make a difference? It has to start right here with our own kids and not allowing it to grow any more..I can hardly wait to see the reaction I get from family and friends when one of my kids decides to marry someone of a different heritage.
Then again they will probably expect it coming from me
My son is stationed at the DLI in Monterey,CA. He has 2 friends, one is black, the other is Chinese. The chinese student invited Ed and the other guy down to LA for a long weekend, but his parents were so afraid of what the neighbors would say if they invited 2 not chinese boys to spend the night that were going to have to get a hotel and just visit. Around nebraska if you are indian or mexican you might as well just sit in a ditch. The people are so predjudiced even today it stinks. And don't even get me started on what the blacks have to face here.:grumpy:
So what can we all do to make a difference? It has to start right here with our own kids and not allowing it to grow any more..I can hardly wait to see the reaction I get from family and friends when one of my kids decides to marry someone of a different heritage.
Then again they will probably expect it coming from meHi, Don. I've enjoyed reading your posts these past few days. I share your interest in swords, too. Noticed you just purchased two BAS's. I've never handled one of those, but I do have a Chainpuri that you should definitely consider as your next khuk. It's solid and substantial in the hand, yet at 15 oz and 18" it feels light as a feather and whip-quick. They don't come up too often, but I understand the Sirupati and Chitlangi are somewhat similar (though the weights given on the HI website seem a fair amount heavier).
I think your disagreements are based on different experiences from mine. Being the son of Chinese immigrants, I have to say that what you've noted about Asian immigrants is generally true (though not always. I used to live in a city that had lots of terribly violent Vietnamese gang activity, for example. And there are Chinese gangs in Manhattan that you definitely would not want to get on the wrong side of.). But where I now live in the Midwest, we have a lot of first and second generation Hispanics, and I have found them to be almost the exact opposite of what you've described. They're good workers, good students, and good people with strong family ties and a strong sense of civic responsibility. Of course, I don't know first-hand what things are like in California.
I think your disagreements are based on different experiences from mine. Being the son of Chinese immigrants, I have to say that what you've noted about Asian immigrants is generally true (though not always. I used to live in a city that had lots of terribly violent Vietnamese gang activity, for example. And there are Chinese gangs in Manhattan that you definitely would not want to get on the wrong side of.). But where I now live in the Midwest, we have a lot of first and second generation Hispanics, and I have found them to be almost the exact opposite of what you've described. They're good workers, good students, and good people with strong family ties and a strong sense of civic responsibility. Of course, I don't know first-hand what things are like in California.
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2003
- Messages
- 302
Yo, mamav;
You wrote, "My son is stationed at the DLI in Monterey,CA."
Me: Lucky sunuvagun. I'd have given my eye teeth to have gotten that assignment.
You: "He has 2 friends, one is black, the other is Chinese. The chinese student invited Ed and the other guy down to LA for a long weekend, but his parents were so afraid of what the neighbors would say if they invited 2 not chinese boys to spend the night that were going to have to get a hotel and just visit."
Me: When I was in Germany, I finally got my orders to rotate Stateside. My wife and I lived in a beautiful apartment. I had a good friend who just arrived at our duty station. He was a fine young fellow. But he was black. I was horrified beyond words when my landlady and landlord refused to rent the apartment to him. "What would the neighbors say?" they asked me. I replied, "Well, they could say, 'My what a nice young American officer.'"
Did no good. I argued, pleaded for what seemed an eternity. No go.
That bothers me even today. That was 20 years ago this last March.
You: "Around nebraska if you are indian or mexican you might as well just sit in a ditch. The people are so predjudiced even today it stinks."
Me: Well, depends on where you go in Nebraska. I grew up there. In Lincoln or Omaha, there is a far more "enlightened" populace. Out west though, it is a different story, to be sure.
You: "And don't even get me started on what the blacks have to face here.:grumpy:"
Me: Where is "here"?
You: "So what can we all do to make a difference? It has to start right here with our own kids and not allowing it to grow any more..I can hardly wait to see the reaction I get from family and friends when one of my kids decides to marry someone of a different heritage. Then again they will probably expect it coming from me"
Me: Yep. It does start with us. But it has to start with ALL of us, and not just a bunch of caucasians feeling guilty for the sins of their ancestors. I hear every day about 'racism', but I gotta tell ya, the biggest racists I've ever met outside of a KKK meeting are many of the blacks here in Los Angeles. Talk about 'prejudice', as in to "pre-judge" someone, this was the second place in my life that anyone ever accused me of making a personnel action based on race.
I was so stunned I couldn't even speak. There is a mindset held by a bunch of people in the black community that whatever misfortune they suffer is all because of some grand white racist conspiracy to "keep the black man down." I don't know when these people will finally figure out that 99.99% of white people just want to do their jobs, pay their bills, and love their families, and just don't have time to think of ways to keep black people oppressed.
Yeah racism truly does exist. But it is not THE reason for 70% of black children being born out of wedlock or 25% of all black males under the age of 25 having been in jail or prison. At some point, people have to take responsibility for their actions and just start doing the right thing, rather than looking for an excuse to walk around angry and petulant and expecting others to bend over backwards for them.
By the way. I married a woman whose mother was Japanese. My mom, a born and raised Nebraskan handled it by disowning me and leaving my dad because he refused to disown me himself.
I knew the day I got my orders for a three year tour in Germany that the half-Japanese woman I was dating was the best thing to come along in my life. She was kind, warm, smart, considerate, mature, and dependable. Compared to my completely fouled up family on my mom's side (alcoholics, wife beaters, drug addicts, criminals, illegitimate children, multiple divorcee's), I think I did pretty good.
My mom sneered to me, "I give your marriage six months," before she stormed out the door.
Let's see, that was almost 23 years ago.
In May, my wife, daughter and I went to Japan to visit my wife's relatives. My kid really enjoyed meeting relatives and learning more about her one-quarter Japanese heritage.
Yeah, my friend. It does begin with us, and our kids. And also a recognition that we all make decisions in our lives, and that we must be accountable for the outcome of our lives. One can make only so many excuses or play the victim so long before the story starts ringing a bit hollow.
Don
You wrote, "My son is stationed at the DLI in Monterey,CA."
Me: Lucky sunuvagun. I'd have given my eye teeth to have gotten that assignment.
You: "He has 2 friends, one is black, the other is Chinese. The chinese student invited Ed and the other guy down to LA for a long weekend, but his parents were so afraid of what the neighbors would say if they invited 2 not chinese boys to spend the night that were going to have to get a hotel and just visit."
Me: When I was in Germany, I finally got my orders to rotate Stateside. My wife and I lived in a beautiful apartment. I had a good friend who just arrived at our duty station. He was a fine young fellow. But he was black. I was horrified beyond words when my landlady and landlord refused to rent the apartment to him. "What would the neighbors say?" they asked me. I replied, "Well, they could say, 'My what a nice young American officer.'"
Did no good. I argued, pleaded for what seemed an eternity. No go.
That bothers me even today. That was 20 years ago this last March.
You: "Around nebraska if you are indian or mexican you might as well just sit in a ditch. The people are so predjudiced even today it stinks."
Me: Well, depends on where you go in Nebraska. I grew up there. In Lincoln or Omaha, there is a far more "enlightened" populace. Out west though, it is a different story, to be sure.
You: "And don't even get me started on what the blacks have to face here.:grumpy:"
Me: Where is "here"?
You: "So what can we all do to make a difference? It has to start right here with our own kids and not allowing it to grow any more..I can hardly wait to see the reaction I get from family and friends when one of my kids decides to marry someone of a different heritage.
Then again they will probably expect it coming from me"Me: Yep. It does start with us. But it has to start with ALL of us, and not just a bunch of caucasians feeling guilty for the sins of their ancestors. I hear every day about 'racism', but I gotta tell ya, the biggest racists I've ever met outside of a KKK meeting are many of the blacks here in Los Angeles. Talk about 'prejudice', as in to "pre-judge" someone, this was the second place in my life that anyone ever accused me of making a personnel action based on race.
I was so stunned I couldn't even speak. There is a mindset held by a bunch of people in the black community that whatever misfortune they suffer is all because of some grand white racist conspiracy to "keep the black man down." I don't know when these people will finally figure out that 99.99% of white people just want to do their jobs, pay their bills, and love their families, and just don't have time to think of ways to keep black people oppressed.
Yeah racism truly does exist. But it is not THE reason for 70% of black children being born out of wedlock or 25% of all black males under the age of 25 having been in jail or prison. At some point, people have to take responsibility for their actions and just start doing the right thing, rather than looking for an excuse to walk around angry and petulant and expecting others to bend over backwards for them.
By the way. I married a woman whose mother was Japanese. My mom, a born and raised Nebraskan handled it by disowning me and leaving my dad because he refused to disown me himself.
I knew the day I got my orders for a three year tour in Germany that the half-Japanese woman I was dating was the best thing to come along in my life. She was kind, warm, smart, considerate, mature, and dependable. Compared to my completely fouled up family on my mom's side (alcoholics, wife beaters, drug addicts, criminals, illegitimate children, multiple divorcee's), I think I did pretty good.
My mom sneered to me, "I give your marriage six months," before she stormed out the door.
Let's see, that was almost 23 years ago.
In May, my wife, daughter and I went to Japan to visit my wife's relatives. My kid really enjoyed meeting relatives and learning more about her one-quarter Japanese heritage.
Yeah, my friend. It does begin with us, and our kids. And also a recognition that we all make decisions in our lives, and that we must be accountable for the outcome of our lives. One can make only so many excuses or play the victim so long before the story starts ringing a bit hollow.
Don
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2003
- Messages
- 302
Dadao;
I looked for the Chainpuri. Can you tell me where it is here?
Yeah (sigh). Chinese and Viet-Namese gangs. Bad stuff, my friend. The Viet-Namese gangs get worse every year here in L.A..
I am not surprised that the Latinos you're exposed to might have a different life experience than what we see here in southern California.
By the way, let me repeat, strongly, the Hispanics I see, work VERY hard. I don't want anyone to not see that I recognize that.
I think the close proximity to Mexico down here encourages the "enclavization" of some of the Hispanic areas. It is very easy to cross back and forth in just a few hours time, so there is little true geographical separation to force "assimilation" (GASP! That "a" word! The bane of the all important "Diversity"!).
For example, you can talk with dozens of young Latinos and their accents are so thick they are quite hard to understand. Then you learn they were BORN here, and yet still carry thick Hispanic accents. And most of them do poorly in school, and a large group of them drop out. There just does not seem to be the emphasis on doing well in school, or doing better than one's father, in the Latino culture as in others. I think this is a byproduct of a very strongly ingrained, and rich culture, with much to offer. Such as the strong devotion to family, and yes, even to Christianity. But there are aspects of the culture that make it hard to assimilate quickly enough that as a whole, they do not experience the improvement in economic growth as found in say, any of the Asian cultures.
Don
Guys & Ladies,
LOL!!I'm enjoying this dialogue. In my life ,I have dealt with all kinds of Racism & I'm white.Korean( young hot shot Dr.friend)had to give up his American girlfriend,parents disapproved she wasn't Korean! He said you think you all are pred!!Asians are worse,Japanese,I would be shot if I dated one!Black Musl.refused to serve me at a rest.Job promotion at a co.,lost to a Black (they had to have a quota)I scored higher but that was their policy! HE told me I owed him cause of slavery!!KKK, I'M not one of their fav. people!MA class "I" was the only white! 3HUGE BB INSTUCTORS ALL BLACK! IT WAS PIER 6 BRAWLS!I fought every night,but then class went from 15 to 4 in one week! INSTRUCTORS treated us all the same "like dogs"!For the last 30yrs the BIGGEST TOUGHEST MOST BRUTAL INSTRUCTOR has been my
best friend!I got my BB from him(I'm still a learning beginner)! WE would die for each other(no bull)!!Black Musl. wanted him to train their"bodyguards"!! He refused,as he said They preach the same HATE as the KKK!So here I am with this HUGE Black Man & blacks ask him,how can HE be your friend,"HE'S WHITE"! He said,Jim is closer to me than my brother! Whites ask me same ? I say he's family! Drives THEM NUTS,when he says MOM likes you best!!
We deal with people like individuals,don't always agree! As I said"would die for each other"! Sorry to be so wordy!
THE SAINT!:
LOL!!I'm enjoying this dialogue. In my life ,I have dealt with all kinds of Racism & I'm white.Korean( young hot shot Dr.friend)had to give up his American girlfriend,parents disapproved she wasn't Korean! He said you think you all are pred!!Asians are worse,Japanese,I would be shot if I dated one!Black Musl.refused to serve me at a rest.Job promotion at a co.,lost to a Black (they had to have a quota)I scored higher but that was their policy! HE told me I owed him cause of slavery!!KKK, I'M not one of their fav. people!MA class "I" was the only white! 3HUGE BB INSTUCTORS ALL BLACK! IT WAS PIER 6 BRAWLS!I fought every night,but then class went from 15 to 4 in one week! INSTRUCTORS treated us all the same "like dogs"!For the last 30yrs the BIGGEST TOUGHEST MOST BRUTAL INSTRUCTOR has been my
best friend!I got my BB from him(I'm still a learning beginner)! WE would die for each other(no bull)!!Black Musl. wanted him to train their"bodyguards"!! He refused,as he said They preach the same HATE as the KKK!So here I am with this HUGE Black Man & blacks ask him,how can HE be your friend,"HE'S WHITE"! He said,Jim is closer to me than my brother! Whites ask me same ? I say he's family! Drives THEM NUTS,when he says MOM likes you best!!
We deal with people like individuals,don't always agree! As I said"would die for each other"! Sorry to be so wordy!
THE SAINT!:
Don,
Do a search for "Chainpuri" on this forum for the past month, and you'll see Uncle Bill's post for 7/15; that's when I got my Chainpuri (second item for sale). They come up every once in a while as a special item. I had to grab it quick... my keyboard was smokin' when I sent my e-mail order!
Do a search for "Chainpuri" on this forum for the past month, and you'll see Uncle Bill's post for 7/15; that's when I got my Chainpuri (second item for sale). They come up every once in a while as a special item. I had to grab it quick... my keyboard was smokin' when I sent my e-mail order!
If you don't like it the way you found it. Don't let the door knob hit you between the cheeks.
As for the ones that come hear because they are looking for a better life. Why the hell are they all trying to change our country to the same crap they just left.
As for the ones that come hear because they are looking for a better life. Why the hell are they all trying to change our country to the same crap they just left.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
- Messages
- 134
I've spent a few years at the DLI myself, learning Korean, Chinese (Mandarin) and Vietnamese.
If your son's in the Army, and is a Chinese or Korean linguist, there's a decent chance that he might end up working with me, here in sunny Hawaii (25th Infantry Division). If he's MI, and gets orders to the 25th, lemme know...If he's a Khuk-kook like you, I'll get him a spot on a team where he'll be able to carry and use one plenty
...and as for the meat of this thread, I agree that immigrants/travelers must adapt to the ways of their new home, rather than trying to force conformation to that which with they're comfortable. I've seen it from many perspectives...belligerent newcomers to the States, demanding their rights and their freedom. Americans abroad, sullen and petulant because the locals won't bend to their will. Hell, as a soldier who's 100% Scot, I have experienced my share of bigotry and racism here in Hawaii...add to the mix the fact that my wife's Mexican Indian; it wasn't till the coming of my beautiful and charming kids that my family thawed enough to admit that my wife just might be a human being.
Heh...who stuck me up on this soapbox?
Boiled down, I guess I agree that, whoever you are and wherever you go, it's incumbent upon you to behave as a guest, and not as an invader.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2003
- Messages
- 1,413
Tommy A.,
Ed is in the Navy but will most likely be in Hawaii when he graduates in May 04. My nieces husband is in Hawaii now. He works on the equipment the translators use or something like that. He's a Marine, David Maguire, and was the recipient of one of my 15"AK's or BAS here a few weeks ago.
I'll tell Ed to look you up when and if he gets there. Hopefully he will be able to have blades in the barracks there. No such luck at DLI. So I'm "stuck" babysitting his for now.
Ed is in the Navy but will most likely be in Hawaii when he graduates in May 04. My nieces husband is in Hawaii now. He works on the equipment the translators use or something like that. He's a Marine, David Maguire, and was the recipient of one of my 15"AK's or BAS here a few weeks ago.
I'll tell Ed to look you up when and if he gets there. Hopefully he will be able to have blades in the barracks there. No such luck at DLI. So I'm "stuck" babysitting his for now.
Actually, I think many who come here and become politically vocal do so because they see some of the bad things from home starting to emerge here -- eg., the erosion of civil liberties (like detaining Arabs indefinitely without legal counsel, or even being told what the charges are, just because they're Arab).
We would do well to listen to people with experience of oppression, so that we can use that knowledge to safeguard our own liberty.
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2003
- Messages
- 302
That is in some part true I think. I have to laugh. I was born in Louisiana and raised in the midwest. I spent a good part of my life on farms and ranches, and began earning my own money, literally before I was eleven.
Because of this, I find living here in California very much like being on an overseas tour of duty. I've been here some 14 years now, and hope every day that each year will be my last and I can move back to the midwest (doesn't have to be Nebraska), or to New Hampshire.
Anyway, as I talk with folks from the northwestern, or southwestern United States, they constantly complain about all the Californians who leave California, and then try to make whereever they live, be like California.
Well, have no fear, folks, because when I finally leave California, it's to go to a place I want to keep just as it is (grin). By the way - I'm not a Californian. I'm a Nebraskan who happens to live in California (bigger grin).
Don
Hey Don,
Good to see you over here.
In a way, though, complaining about being in a place is much the same as trying to change it (ie. saying that it's not the way it should be, from the complainer's perspective). Those Californians could tell you to just leave right now, just like Texans could (and did!) tell me to leave when I first came here and started complaining. If we don't leave from a place we don't find ideal and would like to change, we have no moral right telling anybody else to...
The fact is that we, like most immigrants, are where we are because there's something making us stay -- job, relationships, whatever. I'll even go further and say that the right kind of complaining is patriotic in a sense, because it means we believe in the greater potential of a certain place and have voiced our commitment to bring it about.
Good to see you over here.
In a way, though, complaining about being in a place is much the same as trying to change it (ie. saying that it's not the way it should be, from the complainer's perspective). Those Californians could tell you to just leave right now, just like Texans could (and did!) tell me to leave when I first came here and started complaining. If we don't leave from a place we don't find ideal and would like to change, we have no moral right telling anybody else to...
The fact is that we, like most immigrants, are where we are because there's something making us stay -- job, relationships, whatever. I'll even go further and say that the right kind of complaining is patriotic in a sense, because it means we believe in the greater potential of a certain place and have voiced our commitment to bring it about.
Aardvark
Gold Member
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Until we have something that is perfect (don't hold your breath), constructive criticism is almost a duty. Not talking about complaining, whining, ranting, etc. More along the lines of: "This is what I think is wrong, this is why, and here's what I suggest we do about it." The last part is the hardest.
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Martin Luther King was a darned complainer, always up in everyones business trying to change things. If he was so un-happy he shoulda upped an left. (this is said tongue and cheek of course).
At what point does complaining cross the line? Should people just shut thier mouths and take whatever it is that comes at them, for the sake of not rocking the boat? I remember growing up, many of the people in the Asian community where I lived(almost all immigrants very few second gens) were constantly harrassed. People were beaten, houses/vehicles vandalized, etc... But most of them kept quiet, and didnt complain. No complaints to the police, no protest marches, etc...out of fear that they would be perceived as whiners. Was that an example of good immigrants then? Were the immigrants who finally decided to protest, when an 8 year old boy was beaten by a gang of thugs and the police didnt go after his attackers, just a bunch of whiney complainers?
When we start speaking in generalities we hit these problems, and then it often breaks down to a situation of who can complain about the wrongs done to them (oh the man is holding me down versus quotas are giving my job to lazy unqualified minorities). There are occaissions where both situations occur, but we cannot find solutions if we only operate with the idea that there is only one solution/view-point (no matter which side you land on).
This info is a little old, from when I took CSCL 3979, but statistacally hispanics make up one of the most affluent minority groups in this country. With large portions of the hispanic community being of middle-class, educated, etc... And have historically been very low burden in terms of use of government services (meaning that low percentages of them are on any form of government assistance). By contrast, the highest proportion of people on government assitance (such as welfare) are white people. The largest group of people who benefit from affirmative action, again, are white people (white women). So what does this say about perception and reality?
At what point does complaining cross the line? Should people just shut thier mouths and take whatever it is that comes at them, for the sake of not rocking the boat? I remember growing up, many of the people in the Asian community where I lived(almost all immigrants very few second gens) were constantly harrassed. People were beaten, houses/vehicles vandalized, etc... But most of them kept quiet, and didnt complain. No complaints to the police, no protest marches, etc...out of fear that they would be perceived as whiners. Was that an example of good immigrants then? Were the immigrants who finally decided to protest, when an 8 year old boy was beaten by a gang of thugs and the police didnt go after his attackers, just a bunch of whiney complainers?
When we start speaking in generalities we hit these problems, and then it often breaks down to a situation of who can complain about the wrongs done to them (oh the man is holding me down versus quotas are giving my job to lazy unqualified minorities). There are occaissions where both situations occur, but we cannot find solutions if we only operate with the idea that there is only one solution/view-point (no matter which side you land on).
This info is a little old, from when I took CSCL 3979, but statistacally hispanics make up one of the most affluent minority groups in this country. With large portions of the hispanic community being of middle-class, educated, etc... And have historically been very low burden in terms of use of government services (meaning that low percentages of them are on any form of government assistance). By contrast, the highest proportion of people on government assitance (such as welfare) are white people. The largest group of people who benefit from affirmative action, again, are white people (white women). So what does this say about perception and reality?