OT: ? New Government cartridge? 6.8mm

I lvoe the 1911, and miss mine. Highly suggest them to anyone who wants a good gun.

That being said, I am very happy with my .45 Witness compact. Based on the CZ designs, but made in Italy, beautiful, reliable little guns. ANd easily converted to other calibers with a simple mag and slide change for 179 or so(think that's chepast I've seen conversion kits). SO can get setups to run my .45 in 10mm, 9mm, .40, .22LR and even .38 super. Gun fits my hand beautifully, and is nicely accurate. Every time I let a friend shoot it they're very surprised with groups they get trying it for first time as a new gun, especiallya s it's the shorter barrel compact model.

But nothing beats a good Browning design, and just about eveyr weapon made today around the world takes something from one of his hundred+ gun patents.
 
Munk,

If I had the 5, I'd loan it to you. GI Bill's taking a while to kick in. :rolleyes: I think I'd spring for a nice Delta for that price pretty quickly, if I were you.

When my war chest is built back up, I'll see if that 9x23 you knew of, is still looking for a good home.

John
 
I think book on it in this condition is around 800. It was one of the last series, so had the beefier buffer or whatever Colt did belatedly when they realized their guns were rattling apart. The 9x23 a pal built. 45 frame. He's a gunsmith buddy of mine forced out of business by Clinton and Cal storage laws.


When the time comes, if y our interested in the 9x23, email me and we'll figure out how to make arrangements. I don't recall his price but it was cheap.




munk
 
Oh, about the Witness- best sleeper gun on the market. Don't know why it never caught on. I handled one was so darn accurate I wished I hadn't talked my non-gun buddy into buying it from pawn.

That reminds me, I can get a Witness at a reasonable price too...gee- all my old gun buddies come in handy. But everytime I think of buying one, I ask myself, why bother? since I own the 1911.






munk
 
If you already own a good 1911, not much point in Witness. Only real advantages over a good 1911 that might make it worth buying are size if it's a compact, capacity if you go in one of smaller cartridges(in fulls ize, still only 10 rds in .45, but the 9mm goes higher with prebans), and the ability to change calibers, which is more of a fun toy for range than anything else, as day I can't find .45 ACP I'm unlikely to be able to find anything else, especially as I reload, so long day to run out of ammo.

But yeah, for the price, think the WItnesses are some of best guns out there.
 
Munk,

Kimber has several models, and I wasn't suggesting that they were inferior to the Springfield. The Springfield I was talking about in fact is absolutely bare-basic. Exactly (minus the couple differences noted) like the ones that were sitting on SGT's hips sixty years ago. That is what I like about it. Kimber makes a great gun, and I'm glad that people can get such reasonable prices for all the custom features they want.

The thing is, I don't WANT any custom features! I like them the way they were originally built. With the new WW2 Springfields, I can essentially carry an issue 1911, but one that just happens to shoot a lot better than most of the old ones.

As to advances to the design, the Browning HP was John Browning's refinement of the 1911. Everything that bothered him on the 1911 was adressed on the HP. True, he didn't live to see one completed, but the framework was there. You'll note that not much changed.

Something that people forget, also, is that 95% of automatic pistols incorporate Browning's design, and Walther's double action trigger mechanism. SIGs, Glocks, Berettas, all are basically reincarnations of the same design. The main difference people noted was that the new pistols were better made than the old Colts. 10 years ago that was true, it simply isn't anymore. Kimber set the bar, and the Para Ordnance and Springfield followed suit, building better Gov't Models with better tolerances, that are every bit the equal of everything out there. People operating under the "they always jam, you need to spend money on aftermarket parts to make them work right" are dealing with dated information. The great part is, that means that they can pick whatever suits them best and they'll have a great gun. The bad part is they need to abandon their oft-rehearsed My Pistol Is Better Because speeches. :)

Edit to Add: I have experienced two jams in the last year, and both of them were in a SIG 220E. Does this mean I think the SIG has problems? No, it means that any mechanical device can and eventually will fail, no matter who makes it.
 
T1mpani; I wasn't suggesting Kimber's superiority over Springfield, just that Kimber was beating them on the marketplace by offering more for the money. It was Kimber, wasn't it, that stunned the gun world, and got a round of laughter to boot, at the Shot Show one year by announcing plans to offer CNC 1911's under 500 bucks tighter than the current offerings? Yeppers. They did it, too.

As for custom features, my Springfield is a 1911 A1 basic. I had it ramped and ported. (not porting like people think of today) I wanted to fire a variety of ammo and didn't want a gun set up for only military ball.

AS for tightness, Colt one year put out some WWll Specials, they were loose. The reason? Because too tight tolerances can't keep firing no matter what, which is what you want a military arm to do!! Modern Cmmercial AR's are tight and more prone to jamming, though I never jammed either of mine, a Bushmaster sold to make room for Marlin 38/55 and a preban Colt given to a friend.

I understand many on the competition circuit use Springfield and I'm not sure if that's because Springfield is better or just what everyone's used to. For a while the imported recievers were a knock against them.

Anyway, you now know most of the little I know about the 1911.
I can't see getting a calibre other than 45 The 10 is nice but a labor of love.

Hey- I just thought of something- we've been able to have a conversation about the 1911 without repeating that tired old saw about the hopped up Phillipino's and the need for a bigger round. Whew. WE should be thanked for that. That makes us HEROS in my book.


munk
 
Munk,
Overall, I think both of us just like the Gov't. :)

What we really need is a pistol that launches hopped up Phillipinos. :D
 
LOL. :)

And that's something I've learned in my young age, is that anyone who carries a 1911(or, to some extent, a Hipower), can't be all bad.

No one who respects Mr. Browning can be. :)
 
The Master.


Many many years after his death people at the FN factory still referred to John Browning that way.



munk
 
I don't research or follow this stuff...but..

Between Browning, and the Russian, Kalishnikov....aren't about ALL contemporary designs either copies or generational developments of their ideas?
 
Originally posted by Kismet
I don't research or follow this stuff...but..

Between Browning, and the Russian, Kalishnikov....aren't about ALL contemporary designs either copies or generational developments of their ideas?
Click to expand...

In a word: Yep. In a few more, the Mauser had a large part to play, and Colt of course developed the successful revolver, Smith and Wesson came up with the lever action (and sold it to those who would eventually form the Winchester company) and there have been a few others.

Nobody has had more to do with modern firearm design, though, than Jonathan Browning. There are actually Browning designs that have never been made. Winchester bought a whole bunch of them that they couldn't afford to produce, but also couldn't afford to have their competitors get ahold of the designs. So, in an archive somewhere, are more great firearms. :)
 
Browning lived during the Industrial revolution. What could be done, has in large part been done. That is why not too much new appears. And yes, Browning and others built upon what was before.

We flew for the first time when Browning was inventing firearms.

So if there was a Browning now, he could not repeat. I'd guess John Browning is alive in software.


...

many years ago I read about a simple .22, one moving part. There was no patent and anyone could build it. Browning invented it.
You can bet if there were 'great guns' laying in patent somewhere they would be brought forth.
Bill Ruger was considered a production genius. He couldn't re-invent firearms but he did change the way in which they were built. I understand H and K and Ruger led the world in certain areas of metalurgy research. Sounds like a good sales promo, anyway.

munk
 
Again, you guys know a lot more than I do about this stuff. But I can tell you what my experience has been.

The ONLY 1911 I have ever owned I bought in 1967 from the PX as a young Marine while stationed in Southern California at El Toro. I have fired thousands of rounds through it and it has NEVER failed to go "boom" when I pulled the trigger.

I have used round nose, hollow points, the "dreaded black talon" (ha ha) and most everything else. Always fed the rounds, always went "boom" when I pulled the trigger. Anything inside 25 yards had a half inch hole.

There is no doubt that the Springfield's and the Kimber's are great guns. I own Glocks, AK 47's, SKS rifles, and a bunch of others I shouldn't talk about here.

If I lose them all tomorrow, so be it. I will never give up my Colt 1911.

(sorry for the rambling, too many "Heinekens'" tonight. :) )
 
WEll, you might be able to get my 45 1911 away from me, but you'd have to go through several cylinders of .41 mag to do it.







munk
 
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