OT: Philosophy

I don't know what that means, Nasty. I do my best, and know for a fact you do yours.

edit...I think Jesus wants us to treat people well, and I think you do.


munk
 
Nasty said:
I try to treat people the way *they* want to be treated.
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Multiple meanings and lots of wisdom in that phrase. Not everyone wants to be treated well. Nasty, you may wish to explain this one a bit...or you may not.

As far as I'm concerned, Nasty is one of the good guys, and that's putting it mildly.
 
Hell yes, he's one of the good guys, and we're going off the wrong tangent. Yes, Nasty is correct that literally treating someone the way you'd want to be treated could be 'wrong' or even arrogant under some circumstances, but I think what Jesus meant (and I rarely refer to him so it only makes Karma that when I do it is misinterpreted!) is treat people good, even better than you think they might deserve, because you want people to treat you well also, even if it's not always understood where you're coming from or what's going on.

Now that that's confused enough, I'll quit!!

munk
 
Nasty said:
I try to treat people the way *they* want to be treated.

To treat them the way *I* want to be treated would be arrogant and...well...foolish.
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The Golden Rule may not be the best way to relate. The "Platinum Rule" is closer to what Nasty is saying. This says to "Do unto others are they would be done unto."

I see this as understanding where the other peson is and meeting them at their frame of reference -- their model of the world. You must begin communications there if you want to be an effective communicator.

Value their viewpoint, their perspective.

Everyone is different, has different goals and buttons. Nasty is right to say
Nasty said:
To treat them the way *I* want to be treated would be arrogant and...well...foolish.
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Don't expect that everyone wants what you want, they don't. DISC personality profiles tells us that there are four major and distinct personality types. Each of us is primariliy one of those types (this is a very simplistic statement about a very interesting study.) Statistically if you treat everyone as you would like to be treated, you will be wrong 75% of the time.

For instance, I am a big picture extrovert. I like people, relationships and am not good with details.

I have a close friend who is a detail number cruncher. If I treat him with my usual explosive warmth, he goes into a shell. If I really push to "warm him up" he gets mad and backs away.

However if I ask him about detail work, setting up systems, counting beans, he shines (in a quiet way). He is doing a wonderful job of cataloging my collection.

It would be stupid and arrogant to expect that everyone wants what I want or is like me. It would also be the mark of an ineffective communicator.

My wife is super task oriented. Outgoing and dynamic. A monster of accomplishment. Details escape her. She gets frustrated with me becasuse she thinks I spend too much time talking to people. She wants to DO! "Lead, follow or get the hell out of my way!" Is her motto.

When we get on an elevator, she immediatly begins pushing the button for the desired floor, then she begins pushing the "close door" button.

Me? I am looking out the unlcosed door to see if someone is running for the elevator. I hold the door open for them. My detail friend would be checking the inspection dates and weight capacity of the elevator to determine if it would hold another person of about 212.567 pounds.

So Anne pushes me to get things done and Mike makes sure everything is organized.

The point here is that while we all have certain common needs, people DO view the world in very different ways. I can not treat Mike and Anne the way I would like ot be treated. I will just anger and distance them. I need to treat them the way THEY want to be treated.

Before I understood this, I would have thought that Mike and Anne were jerks because they do not see the world like I do, this would be stupid of me. Working together and understanding each other makes us a very effective team.

Someday we can get into whether a person is visual, auditory, kinesthetic, olfactory or gustatory -- but that is another time.

Looking forward to the good feeling I will have by hearing from you......
 
Yvsa, I read the definition you posted...

My definition of a fool...probably cloer to 1 or 2. Number 6 becomes an interesting point as many Saints could be lumped in there.

If we are using #7...then ost of us have eatne a "fool" at one time or another! (I think we would call it a smoothie now)...Although I could see starting a new fracnhise called "Cool Fool!"

As far as the Golden Rule thing goes...I think it speaks to respect and compassion for all life...in the event you do not understand what is the right thing to do...do no harm...or sometimes even do nothing....

Life is a great comedy!

Shane
 
No one willingly.

Dostoyevsky was fascinated by this concept. He attempted a book, The Idiot, which fell short. In many of his other works the Fool was often portrayed. As you can imagine, there are many nuances and different ways of looking at this.

Jerzy Kosinky wrote a book which became a very good movie on this, though primarily not with the Divine so much as the ignorant.

The Tarro uses a Fool in a card in the classic sense; one who is divine but about to walk off a cliff.

For the most part, there is no 'fool'. Men do good and bad and mediocre things. Men are also misunderstood and mislabeled a great deal by other men.
I think our society is very good at 'catching' someone in a moment of time, freezing that moment, and attempting to lable as if in concrete that person forever.

I think such prejudice and easy judgments are the most foolish of all. The classic Fool is a useful Foil, because he reveals the hypopcracy, oversimplicity, and spite in the society and peers around him.

It is worth noting there are men who considered Bill Martino a fool, and Rusty.

I think my earlier post summed up well what I think of that kind of easy judgement.

>>>>>>>>>



munk
 
I'm gonna hafta say.....Bruise Lee!

In all seriousness...If you are referring to the use of the word fool as Yvsa'a Number 6....One who subverts convention or orthodoxy or varies from social conformity in order to reveal spiritual or moral truth: a holy fool.

I believe we all become God's fool...at times deleivering those messages we were talking about.


Speaking to munk's point about personal gifts...
Maybe nobody will get this...who knows...I never have been a good student...not in school...not in life. Especially in anythign creative. Here's why...me personally...I can't draw a straight line or a circle. I have no depth perception and no real eye for beauty. Most of the people who know me will say that is a wad of horse sh*t! But those who really know me understand...

When I take up a pencil to draw...or a hammer to forge. It ain't me. Whatever it is works through me. The best I can do is ask for guidance and then begin. Hours melt away...I get to watch as it happens...but to say I had any influence...that seems wrong.

Now before anybody trips...because it sounds like I am saying I am being lead by divine guidance...I am not. All I am saying is that gifts flow through us...not because of us.

You can tell me I am wrong. But I would bet most of you have experienced this when you are really doing what you love. FOr Munk I would guess writing is where he finds this sort of solace.

ONe of the wisest people I knew...and one of the most talented was a homelss guy I met in an ER in San Francisco. He was a schizophrenic.
He carried with him and old portfolio. When he was on his meds...he was basically colr blind...and as mundane as you or I...but just as the effects of his meds wore off...he could paint...and create in the most amazing ways...seriously some of the best art I have ever seen. He would paint until he lost all clartiy...then check into the hospital...get right again...and then...off he went...to wait for the inspired moment. The thing is he knew how good he was...and he knew if he joined the mainstream it would be lost.
So he lived this half life...between here and there...

Was he a fool?

You guys started talking about Jesus...

Jesus, however you consider him, son of God, prophet, teacher, whatever...
We all will admit he was a man. Flesh and Blood. He knew what it was to hurt and want and lust. And in the #6 definition he was probably God's fool...I wish I had the strength to be such a fool!

Shane
 
Well said and done, Shane.

I understand.

As overtalked and used as Jesus is, ( and many would say not talked about nor used half as much as He should be) I still return to Jesus words and life for a fresh look, wondering. It is one of the central myth dynamnics in human society. I do not mean this disparagingly at all. (He is looked at in many ways through many eyes)

I often phrase Him (to myself) ; "This is what happens to a completely honest man."

>>>>>>>>>

I've sat each of my sons down and told them; "IF I punish you, and I'm getting it wrong, you can tell me. If I try to figure out what's happened between you and your brothers, and I'm about to get it wrong, tell me I've got it wrong."




munk
 
munk said:
The Tarro uses a Fool in a card in the classic sense; one who is divine but about to walk off a cliff. munk
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Not exactly. The Fool Trump card is the ignorant man. Only considered foolish because he is beginning his journey into manifestation. This is foolish in an unknowing sense. He gains some power in the next card, the Magician where he learns to bring power from above inot manifestation below.

I assume you mean the Rider deck?
 
Hell Bill; I'm not up on the decks. I steer away from that stuff. I prefer my mysticism delivered directly from the Maker.

I've met some gifted people who use the cards as is from the Maker- and translate. I won't say hocus pocus....but anyway, my understanding of the Fool in the Cards comes from some references in literature on them (from time to time) and what these gifted people have told me. Yes, he is the Fool in the sense of just at the beginning of his voyage, but he is also gifted because he knows he will not die- he knows he is protected and will continue. He knows it is going to be OK. Anyway, from what I understood, the card itself means different things as it is played in arrangement with other cards, but like I said, I don't pay much attention to the cards.

ignorance can mean unknowing, it can also denote an angry mob about to do great harm.

munk
 
shane justice said:
Jesus, however you consider him, son of God, prophet, teacher, whatever...
We all will admit he was a man. Flesh and Blood. He knew what it was to hurt and want and lust. And in the #6 definition he was probably God's fool...I wish I had the strength to be such a fool!

Shane
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Amen here! He did have strength. I like that you put "Son of God" first. I have known people who said that He was a great teacher, holy man, prophet, etc, etc.

I would not have opened this conversation, but since it is now before the Forum, I want to add my two talents.

I have never know anyone who said He was insane. BUT take a look at what Jesus said. He left us no choice. Either He was/is the Son of God, or He was an egocentric insane person.

You can not stop with saying He was just a great teacher.

He did not leave us an alternative.

One or the other.
 
I sometime wonder if much of what Jesus said has been misinterpreted, ie:

I and the father are one...I am the way, the truth, and the life...The kingdom of God is within you (harder to misinterpret, methinks)...You are gods*...etc.

John

*John 22:34, quoting Psalm 82:6
 
Since this got religious and included Jesus... Pilate is one of my favorite Bible figures. I see a lot of myself in him. When confronted with the situation and the questions he asked "What is Truth?" It is not always clear cut. His dilema and how he handled it are very much the way most people would have. Did he see Jesus as the fool delivering Truth?
 
"Fool", perhaps, only in the sense of the completely innocent.

Dunno how religious it really is, Bob. I'm not religious at all...but I and the Father are one. ;)
 
hello all,

I am tempted to "contribute", but I am too tired to safely add much.

God does testify to his amusement at the plots and schemes of the rulers of this world who think they can thwart his will. Also, our sense of humor must have a source.

To clarify something about Jesus; since he was tempted in all points as we are, he was no doubt temted TO lust, but since he is without sin, he never actually LUSTED.

Boy, I am tepmted to say more, but I promised!! :)

Tom
 
Applause from the sidelines! Munk, once again (with your first post) you have nailed it for me....( I like to think I know truth when I hear it.) Kudos also for Spectre, re: those who don't even know they are delivering the truth. I am always perplexed by those, including some students, who think they can somehow advance their cause by lying...It depresses me. Shakespeare had it right when he said "This above all, to thine own self be true, and it must follow as the night the day, thou can'st not then be false to any man...."
 
Bobwhite said:
Since this got religious and included Jesus... Pilate is one of my favorite Bible figures. I see a lot of myself in him. When confronted with the situation and the questions he asked "What is Truth?" It is not always clear cut. His dilema and how he handled it are very much the way most people would have. Did he see Jesus as the fool delivering Truth?
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Wasn't it Pilate who said, "We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?"
 
I dunno. I know that's what he said in Jesus Christ Superstar: A Rock Opera.




(yeah, I always kinda liked that btw...)


munk
 
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