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OT- US Troop Deaths vs. US Population
- Thread starter Spectre
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,331
The initial #'s are probably less than accurate; they're just what has been presented by the MilScience Dept. I think the # of US Force deaths is from all causes, but you're entirely right.
My point was, that, even if the stats given could be directly compared, that is still a MUCH higher chance of dying in the Gulf than in the States.
Dave, I can really feel what you meant. I think it was Robert E. Lee who said that it was good that war was so awful, or we might grow too fond of it. :barf:
John
My point was, that, even if the stats given could be directly compared, that is still a MUCH higher chance of dying in the Gulf than in the States.
Dave, I can really feel what you meant. I think it was Robert E. Lee who said that it was good that war was so awful, or we might grow too fond of it. :barf:
John
- Joined
- May 12, 2003
- Messages
- 1,606
John's math probably shows the right of it.
Dave, Opinions are all good. Polished or no, depending on the company you keep. SOme parts of this forum they would still be scrapping over that post. Here the guys are pretty solid, as you can see by there replies.
This whole war against terror...gives me the weebie jeebies. Low intensity conflict is the name of the game. To me all that means is the enemy has drawn us in too close to allow our stengths to be effective. We are playing on his playground...with...once again our hands tied around our sacks.
It seems we are held to a sense of fair play...set up in Switzerland...a long time ago...and also by our own elevated morality. That same sense of what is "right" when it comes to killing people is wasted on these folks who learned how to "root hog or die" using any means.
I brought up HH's comments for a reason...they intrigued me. He said in essence, "Can't we all just get along." Wisdom certainly. I love the man for what he is. But is that reality?
In the world I live in, there are people who will kill you just for the sheer hell of it. On a global sense even if we all lived in peace, in our relative corners, there are still going to be these little dip wads running around with the idea that because nobody is listening to their ravings...they need to blow something up. Then what? Sit them down and give them tea..and tell them they are loved?
I do not know what is right.
But I wish Bush would say it. Is the war worth American lives?
Hell NO! F*&K NO! That shite hole is not worth one drop of American blood!
Not now! Not EVER! So Piss off!
George would get in trouble saying that....
But I guess one of the whole talking points is that unless we kick ass over there...they are gonna come over here....
All that being said...I still don't know what is right. I do know I want our guys allowed to do whatever they gotta do...to do their jobs...get it done...and come home...whatever that means...give them the tools...and the support...and get the hell out of the way so they can do it. NO moral judgements from the sidelines...or quiet indignation at the atrocities of war. Let them wonderful bastards take hair and fingers...goddamn it! That is what we trained them to do! Now let them do it. Let them scare hell out of them insurgents. Let them see what an American fighting man is capable of...and maybe they will shut the hell up...
OK...so I stepped into the deep end there...you guys get what I am saying....
As a sidebar ~ Ain't it a crying shame that we are buying ammunition form the Israelis? Since our great land cannot make cartridges fast enought o keep up with the demand? Last free country in the world and we ain't got enought bullets for our Armed Services...so we had to BUY from Israel? You gotta be Shi**ing me!
Shane
Dave, Opinions are all good. Polished or no, depending on the company you keep. SOme parts of this forum they would still be scrapping over that post. Here the guys are pretty solid, as you can see by there replies.
This whole war against terror...gives me the weebie jeebies. Low intensity conflict is the name of the game. To me all that means is the enemy has drawn us in too close to allow our stengths to be effective. We are playing on his playground...with...once again our hands tied around our sacks.
It seems we are held to a sense of fair play...set up in Switzerland...a long time ago...and also by our own elevated morality. That same sense of what is "right" when it comes to killing people is wasted on these folks who learned how to "root hog or die" using any means.
I brought up HH's comments for a reason...they intrigued me. He said in essence, "Can't we all just get along." Wisdom certainly. I love the man for what he is. But is that reality?
In the world I live in, there are people who will kill you just for the sheer hell of it. On a global sense even if we all lived in peace, in our relative corners, there are still going to be these little dip wads running around with the idea that because nobody is listening to their ravings...they need to blow something up. Then what? Sit them down and give them tea..and tell them they are loved?
I do not know what is right.
But I wish Bush would say it. Is the war worth American lives?
Hell NO! F*&K NO! That shite hole is not worth one drop of American blood!
Not now! Not EVER! So Piss off!
George would get in trouble saying that....
But I guess one of the whole talking points is that unless we kick ass over there...they are gonna come over here....
All that being said...I still don't know what is right. I do know I want our guys allowed to do whatever they gotta do...to do their jobs...get it done...and come home...whatever that means...give them the tools...and the support...and get the hell out of the way so they can do it. NO moral judgements from the sidelines...or quiet indignation at the atrocities of war. Let them wonderful bastards take hair and fingers...goddamn it! That is what we trained them to do! Now let them do it. Let them scare hell out of them insurgents. Let them see what an American fighting man is capable of...and maybe they will shut the hell up...
OK...so I stepped into the deep end there...you guys get what I am saying....
As a sidebar ~ Ain't it a crying shame that we are buying ammunition form the Israelis? Since our great land cannot make cartridges fast enought o keep up with the demand? Last free country in the world and we ain't got enought bullets for our Armed Services...so we had to BUY from Israel? You gotta be Shi**ing me!
Shane
- Joined
- Nov 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,331
Well, I call myself a Buddhist. That is because I believe in the most basic tennet of Buddhism, that pain and suffering in life comes from unrealized expectation; I feel this is a self-evident statement.
As a Buddhist, I feel that it is my duty to understand reality. Part of understanding reality may be in understanding history. As a historian, I know Buddhism was heavily influenced by developing Jainism in India, which tended to impart many of the ideas about utter nonviolence to living things.
Since I have some understanding of the nature of reality, I understand that some things must always die so that others may live. This is the way it has been, this is how it is, this is how it will be. To fight against this natural order is foolish and doomed. (And, this is where my shamanistic beliefs fit right in.) I gladly take my place in the "great circle of life". I am a part of the food chain. I expect to be eaten, if not now, then eventually, and I kill and eat- and I respect my prey by acknowledging the gift of life it has given me, instead of disrespecting it by failing to remember that I am eating what was recently a living being.
Along with my learning to accept the nature of reality, I understand that mankind has survival drives. Several of them will lead him to compete and clash with his fellow man, sometimes in violent ways.
We all can only do what we can do. We have an obligation to do the right thing as we understand it, and to treat others with love and respect, as we should also treat our world. I fully believe, if I am set upon a battlefield, that I may face someone on the other side who is also struggling to do the right thing as he understands it. This person, in another time and place, could perhaps have been my best friend. His job is to kill me if he can. My job is to kill him if I can. I don't hate him anymore than I hate myself, but if placed in that situation, I will kill him if I can.
Some may say that we do not face an honorable foe. Who am I to judge? And, does it matter? I am certain some of those wearing US uniforms are not honorable, either. We are all human. Some will die, and some will live. This is the way it has been, and this is how it will be, until man can find a way for all to peaceably coexist.
And, as someone with a little scientific knowledge, I know this is improbable. If it should happen, we will be visited by devastating disease, or natural disaster, or some combination, to keep mankind in check. Ultimately, I am an agent of the universe. This does not excuse me from doing the right thing as I understand it.
Sorry for the ramble...
J
As a Buddhist, I feel that it is my duty to understand reality. Part of understanding reality may be in understanding history. As a historian, I know Buddhism was heavily influenced by developing Jainism in India, which tended to impart many of the ideas about utter nonviolence to living things.
Since I have some understanding of the nature of reality, I understand that some things must always die so that others may live. This is the way it has been, this is how it is, this is how it will be. To fight against this natural order is foolish and doomed. (And, this is where my shamanistic beliefs fit right in.) I gladly take my place in the "great circle of life". I am a part of the food chain. I expect to be eaten, if not now, then eventually, and I kill and eat- and I respect my prey by acknowledging the gift of life it has given me, instead of disrespecting it by failing to remember that I am eating what was recently a living being.
Along with my learning to accept the nature of reality, I understand that mankind has survival drives. Several of them will lead him to compete and clash with his fellow man, sometimes in violent ways.
We all can only do what we can do. We have an obligation to do the right thing as we understand it, and to treat others with love and respect, as we should also treat our world. I fully believe, if I am set upon a battlefield, that I may face someone on the other side who is also struggling to do the right thing as he understands it. This person, in another time and place, could perhaps have been my best friend. His job is to kill me if he can. My job is to kill him if I can. I don't hate him anymore than I hate myself, but if placed in that situation, I will kill him if I can.
Some may say that we do not face an honorable foe. Who am I to judge? And, does it matter? I am certain some of those wearing US uniforms are not honorable, either. We are all human. Some will die, and some will live. This is the way it has been, and this is how it will be, until man can find a way for all to peaceably coexist.
And, as someone with a little scientific knowledge, I know this is improbable. If it should happen, we will be visited by devastating disease, or natural disaster, or some combination, to keep mankind in check. Ultimately, I am an agent of the universe. This does not excuse me from doing the right thing as I understand it.
Sorry for the ramble...
J
It's worth noting that the World serves up problems that are untenable. That is, damned if you do and damned if you don't. It is a great illusion there is a 'right' way to do many things. We all wish Iraq had gone better- but it has not gone all bad, and it is largely a myth that any 'exit strategy' made by living men could have addressed all of chaos and unknowing. IF you really believe in men's plans, I'll always throw the IRS up for your inspection.
munk
munk
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2004
- Messages
- 560
Please compaire the total US death rate in Iraq with the TOTAL death rate in the US...
Just compairing to the gunshot deathrate is not that usefull, as most people that die in the US do not die from gunshots.
Just compairing to the gunshot deathrate is not that usefull, as most people that die in the US do not die from gunshots.
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2002
- Messages
- 3,930
Comparing toe tags from combat/non-combat mortalities is a fine exercise in math and statistics, but I never met a dead guy that gave a crap about how his personal contribution affected the "numbers". Life is inherently dangerous, none of us get out of here alive. We may, justifiably, grow frustrated with politics and politicians, but our service men and women still deserve our unwavering support. Yes, a lot of people die in this country each and every day, whether from gunshot wounds, traffic accidents, or whatever. However, with the exception of police, firefighters, etc., how many of those people made a conscious decision to place themselves in harm's way on behalf of others?
I may be retired now, but I'm still fiercely proud of, and you better believe, loyal to, my brothers and sisters in arms. Sorry if I sound a bit grumpy, but it pokes me with a sharp stick a bit to hear folks comparing sacrifice with misfortune. We all die, how doesn't matter, what does matter is how we lived.
Sarge
I may be retired now, but I'm still fiercely proud of, and you better believe, loyal to, my brothers and sisters in arms. Sorry if I sound a bit grumpy, but it pokes me with a sharp stick a bit to hear folks comparing sacrifice with misfortune. We all die, how doesn't matter, what does matter is how we lived.
Sarge
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2002
- Messages
- 3,930
Sylvrfalcn said:
Maybe you should have read more closely the first go around before you set about correcting me son.
Sarge
One good thing I've lived to see in my lifetime- from the highpoint of Patriotism in during WWll, this nation underwent (along with the rest of the world) many sociological changes, many of these negative. The low point was the post Vietnam era.
Today, liberals and conservatives agree that our young men and women are couragious and their sacrafises worth much, regardless of how each may feel about one global action or another.
I'm glad I lived to see that. That one thing, honoring sacrafise, helped heal more in our crazy world than anything else I can think of, and bodes well for our society.
munk
Today, liberals and conservatives agree that our young men and women are couragious and their sacrafises worth much, regardless of how each may feel about one global action or another.
I'm glad I lived to see that. That one thing, honoring sacrafise, helped heal more in our crazy world than anything else I can think of, and bodes well for our society.
munk
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2005
- Messages
- 880
One of my own sons was with that group in Somalia who were told to stand down after the incident recalled above. He is still, to this day, very angry they were not allowed to finish what was started for them. At 39, he has less than three years left to retire from the Army, and is wondering what a 42 year old does with a Criminal Justice degree and all that combat time....I am suggesting a small farm in West Virginia, and plenty of time outdoors.
- Joined
- May 12, 2003
- Messages
- 1,606
Ok so I jumped off the edge a bit.
Once again John's rational thought made good sense...
Jurassic...get your boy a forge for his farm...it will heal...and maybe make him a bit of money...wiht his background it is a good start as a blade smith.
Shane
Once again John's rational thought made good sense...
Jurassic...get your boy a forge for his farm...it will heal...and maybe make him a bit of money...wiht his background it is a good start as a blade smith.
Shane
Spectre,
How about a more honest number crunching? Either compare the number of troops KIA by gunshots to U.S. gunshots, total murder versus total KIA, total killed in theater to total murder/accidental.
The actual average of U.S. service men and women killed in Iraq hovers at about 1.5. This number is from all causes. So divide the initial percentage by half. Lets add in motor vehicle accidents in the U.S. at a slightly higher rate than GSWs, other murders at a higher number still, drug overdoses, suicides, and medical mistakes. Best swag is 260,000 per year CONUS or 707 per day for deaths. Still works out approximately 2.5X higher in Iraq.
We now need to norm for demographics based on age groups. Ask your .mil instructors to contact the various services safety centers and ask the question on rates for normed demographics. Care to guess where you are safer?
You are the one who is trying to lie with statistics. The truth that is safer in a combat zone than in CONUS doesnt go down well in various quarters.
Tell me what are the lessons of history? Which ones are relevant to the current middle East situation? Makes for a decent term paper or thesis.
If you want a view of reality go over to Iraq or the Stans. It will put a different perspective on things from the media.
Satori,
The military doesnt pay taxes? Good idea please implement soonest and retroactively. Military service and college, please explain as Im at a loss.
Sarge,
Gotta disagree on the matter of death being immaterial. While death in of itself is absolute and the only variables being time and circumstance your I think it matters to those who have consciously and sometimes against direct orders placed themselves between a threat and those that needed help accepting any and all consequences.
I may join you as a civilian again soon, possible 100% disability, just wearing out after 25+ years.
S/F, FOG
How about a more honest number crunching? Either compare the number of troops KIA by gunshots to U.S. gunshots, total murder versus total KIA, total killed in theater to total murder/accidental.
The actual average of U.S. service men and women killed in Iraq hovers at about 1.5. This number is from all causes. So divide the initial percentage by half. Lets add in motor vehicle accidents in the U.S. at a slightly higher rate than GSWs, other murders at a higher number still, drug overdoses, suicides, and medical mistakes. Best swag is 260,000 per year CONUS or 707 per day for deaths. Still works out approximately 2.5X higher in Iraq.
We now need to norm for demographics based on age groups. Ask your .mil instructors to contact the various services safety centers and ask the question on rates for normed demographics. Care to guess where you are safer?
You are the one who is trying to lie with statistics. The truth that is safer in a combat zone than in CONUS doesnt go down well in various quarters.
Tell me what are the lessons of history? Which ones are relevant to the current middle East situation? Makes for a decent term paper or thesis.
If you want a view of reality go over to Iraq or the Stans. It will put a different perspective on things from the media.
Satori,
The military doesnt pay taxes? Good idea please implement soonest and retroactively. Military service and college, please explain as Im at a loss.
Sarge,
Gotta disagree on the matter of death being immaterial. While death in of itself is absolute and the only variables being time and circumstance your I think it matters to those who have consciously and sometimes against direct orders placed themselves between a threat and those that needed help accepting any and all consequences.
I may join you as a civilian again soon, possible 100% disability, just wearing out after 25+ years.
S/F, FOG