OT- US Troop Deaths vs. US Population

I will use this as a spot to tell a story of the kid I served with who died over in Mosul, Iraq.

In Fall of 1995 I was assigned to Alpha Co. 2/187 Infantry as their Medic. One of these soldiers was a brand spanking new from Baisic & Infantry school Private First Class. His name was Jake Demand, PFC Demand as I knew him, and all of 19 or 20 years old. Our 1st field problem, and his 1st ever, was to be a Bunker clearing exercise at night under constant fire support. The command staff had also decided that this was going to be the 1st time in a long time that they would allow minimum safe distance firing from the supporting fire. Basically what this meant was that the incoming supporting fire from Artillery, Blackhawk Gunships, and Mortars, would be coming down damn close. We practiced the routine for weeks, with PFC Demand as 1 of our SAW Gunners. My job as Medic was really just to tag along behind the Platoon Sgt and hope nothing went wrong. Well the night of the actual field exercise came and Cripes what a fireworks show. My adrenaline was flowing and we were running and I felt so alive. As the Platoon Sgt ran for the bunker I noticed he was a bit nervous and moving differently then during training. That was when I noticed that there was tracers whipping all around us - PFC Demand had forgotten to shift fire and was now firing into our midst. The Platoon Sgt noticed I was behind him and told me to get in the bunker fast as he went towards PFC Demand. I literally dove head first into the bunker when I neared it. Shortly thereafter PFC Demand ceased firing - he got royally chewed out, but no one was hurt. Makes me laugh nowadays that during my short time in the only time I almost got shot was from my own guys.

This being 1995, and me a Atlanta Braves fan, I was talking a lot of baseball. PFC Demand was a baseball fan too, and we talked a lot. He was a good kid, and for a Infantry soldier hardly foul-mouthed at all - Hell, I as the Medic cussed more than him even. Our talk of baseball turned to other subjects, our military careers, future plans, personal interests, etc. I being the older, he asked a lot of advice. I thought of all my soldiers as my kids that I looked after, but PFC Demand stood out as he was just so good natured.

Well I got Melanoma Cancer shortly thereafter. I went through several surgeries on my left neck (thus the name Halfneck) left arm and right lung. I was offered to get out on a Medical discharge but I stayed in as I could still do my job and pass my physical fitness test. The long runs were hard though as the immunotherapy injections I gave myself 3 times a week took a lot out of me. Early on as I was trying to adjust too them we had a battalion run. I was sucking hard and started to fall behind from my company. As I was starting to think about giving up my guys from Alpha Co. came along and started saying "C'mon Doc you can do it." "Here Doc jump in with us." and "4 more miles Doc run with us we will get you through." PFC Demand was one of them.

Well the use of my left arm got worse and I got out in '99. Lost track of a lot of them as the years past. After 9/11 and Iraq I honestly avoided a lot of the news as I was bitter that I was no longer in and I did not want to know if anyone I knew was killed.

Then one day at the Clinic bored and surfing the Internet at lunch I stumbled upon a U.S. Caualty list. Though I did not want to look I found myself going through the names. As I hit the D's there was a Sgt. Demand with a picture from his Basic Training. Killed in Sept of '04 while on Patrol in Mosul, Iraq. I had to leave work early.

In the days that followed I found out that Sgt. Demand had gotten married and had 2, possibly 3 kids, and then gotten divorced. He had requested a transfer from Ft. Campbell to Ft. Lewis so he could be closer to his family in Washington State. He was assigned to a Cavalry unit and was set to either transfer or get out of the Army when they were sent into Iraq. While on Patrol in Mosul on that fateful night they were ambushed by supierior forces and under heavy fire. Sgt Demand was protecting their indigenous Iraqi liason. In protecting the liason he expended all his ammo and was shot several times from which he eventually died. He was 29 years old.

I am haunted by his death as he was such a good person. Then here I sit with a not-so-stellar past and such severe cancer that back in late 95 I was not expected to live. I still have less that a 5% chance every year according to the statistics. Though I don't know the grand scheme of things I can only hope his death meant something to someone and was not in vain.
 
FOG II said:
Satori,

The military doesn’t pay taxes? Good idea please implement soonest and retroactively. Military service and college, please explain as I’m at a loss.
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I'm not sure where I implied that the military doesn't pay taxes, but since you asked, parts of my income are indeed tax free.

If you're referring to my comment about the people paying for it getting a say you misunderstood me. Yes, I pay part of my paycheck, and so does everyone else in the country. There are a whole lot more of them then there are of me. Regardless, they're paying too - they ought to get their say. (And they do.) I work for them, not vice versa...and it's very good that the system is organized this way.

Military service and college: there are a variety of programs in place (some specific to particular services, some common to all of them) to earn individual credits or degrees at low to no cost; some states provide even more assistance above and beyond what the federal government offers.

All of which is neither here nor there, of course. The point I was trying to make is that there is a significant number of people who enlisted (or are thinking of enlisting) for such mundane reasons as affordable education, job training, and even a steady paycheck. (In fact, I'm one of them.) They may not have signed up to fight but it's a real possibility all the same and one that the individual should be prepared for. Sometimes people both in and out of the service forget this.
 
FOG II said:
Sarge,

Gotta disagree on the matter of death being immaterial. While death in of itself is absolute and the only variables being time and circumstance your I think it matters to those who have consciously and sometimes against direct orders placed themselves between a threat and those that needed help accepting any and all consequences.

I may join you as a civilian again soon, possible 100% disability, just wearing out after 25+ years.

S/F, FOG
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I never said death was immaterial, just pointed out that it is inevitable. If you can argue that, then you know something I don't.

Sarge
 
Are the initial numbers presented accurate? Also note that it is simply "die" vs. "die from GSW". "die" could be a chopper crash or hummer accident, while "Die from GSW" is much more defined. It's like comparing apples and watermelons.
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When you consider that the average troop spend his day flying complexed machinery into all sorts of weather, or operating heavy equipment under primitive conditions, or driving around on what we would consider unsafe roads, the death rate in Iraq has been positively tiny. Every day ordinary Americans leave their families to go into work; and, every day many do not make it home again. The risks from crime and accidents of all sorts probably does exceed anything the troops face in Iraq. As much as I respect the work of the military, police, and firefighters, I also respect the work of ordinary people. That guy who goes to work at the 7-11 every day; even though he knows that the store has been robbed at gunpoint 4 times during the previous year, deserves just as much respect; he certainly has no shortfall in guts. The same can be said for the bean counter who takes on the kind of stress that has left his predecessors with a stroke, or the construction worker who suffers minor injuries every day and knows that the big one is just a blunder away. The only safe environment is 6 feet under your tomb stone; the rest of us live our lives and place our bets.

Clearly the loss of life, any life, is tragic; but, any policy based on tragedy is ill conceived. We go into work because we must, and we fight in Iraq because it is in our national interest. It is valid to debate whether we are accomplishing anything useful in Iraq; but, to argue that we should cut and run based on the casualty count shows the sort of low brow analysis of someone who is unwilling to even ponder the problem.

In real political terms there only one reason why lives have been lost in Iraq. If the UN had not proven itself a complete failure as an institution, Saddam would have retired to a comfortable stay in the South of France, and the Iraqi people would have enjoyed a smooth and peaceful transition. No one fights a war that they are bound to lose; but, it is hard to get that calculus right when so many are willing to turn their backs and osfuscate a clear meassage with baseless self serving political rethoric. As far as I know, no one at the UN has declared war on the US. Those who opposed our diplomatic efforts over many years were either playing a political prank on their own populations, or lack the conviction to follow through on their opposition. These nations made jest when the utmost seriousness was called for, and their irresponsible behavior is the reason that people on all sides have and are dying in Iraq.

n2s
 
You are the one who is trying to lie with statistics
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Whoah! Whoah, whoah, whoah.

I have stated numerous times in this thread that I was USING THE STATISTICS GIVEN TO ME.

Do me a favor, and don't talk fighting words at a distance.

John R. Shirley
 
Doc,

Jake Demand sounds like a hell of a man. Thank you for telling us about him.

John
 
Spectre said:
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Quick Comparitive Analysis Between US Mainland and US PG- Deployed Personnel

Deaths

3 deaths/ 250,000 personnel (US Military)
93 deaths/295,000,000
93 is 31x 3. 31 times as many people die from GSW daily in the US than in Iraq.
There are over 295 million people in the US. There are less than 250,000 US personnel in the entire Persian Gulf region. This is 1180x as many people in the US. 1180 divided by 31 = 38. This means each individual service member in Iraq is 38x as likely to die violently than if he were home in the US. If the US population had a similar rate of deaths, there would be 3534 GSW deaths in the US every day.
---
CNN says “more than 220,000” troops. # elevated to be certain it was high enough
CIA actually estimates over 295.7 million.
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I will like you to swow me the same statistics on Vietnam era or war?



plan no useless move, take no step in vain.

ishiyumisan
 
I would appreciate it if you guys would not let the steam get to your brains.
I once got so mad at Spectre over a firearms technical issue I I I.....well; when I looked it over I wondered what in the heck kind of hay I'd been chewing?

I've followed this thread. We're doing OK. Ease down a notch before posting retalatory type cuts.

Most of you are on the same damn page anyway so getting hot is kinda dumb.
It's easy to be pissed in print in public.
Free speech is King around here and I'm not removing anything, but I don't want to see a good thread go down.

That's all.

It's not very hard to see that the young Americans today are some pretty good stuff, despite all the bad press from the doomsayers.



munk
 
I'm going to jump right in here just like I was always here. I like you guys a lot and most of you think like I do, but those who don't cause me to think about things in ways that help me to be less narrow minded. Spectre's statistics are well done and we can draw lots of conclusions, but sometimes numbers fool us. The government is often clumsy about numbers of things and special interest groups are often devious about numbers of things so... it pays to question and be cautious before we make up our minds and go screaming our positions in other's faces. Here a JOKE that can be used as an example: The Piper Cub is one of the safest airplanes ever built. In the event of a crash, it just barely kills you.
 
Good post, Nifer. Welcome.



For a time we almost stopped making light planes because of insurance.

There is no man made assurance we will get out of this life alive.



munk
 
Well really stats and numbers do not count................

0.001 %..........?????????? or whatsoever...........??

Doesn't matter.............if ever your family member is within that whatsoever small percentage of casualties.................

it's 100 %.................
 
Doc(Halfneck--what do you like to be called?),

Thanks for posting that. I have lived in fear of melanoma since I was 17 years old. I still remember seeing an article in the Saturday Evening Post with pictures of Melanomas---well, one of them looked like a mole I had. Didn't dare to get it checked out I was too scared. Then In college I had a doctor/researcher tell me that it wasn't a matter of "if" but of "when" because I was peppered with atypical moles. I have been going regularly every year now and have had 4 cut out and biopsied. None have been cancerous.

I now know that there is no way that doctor could know that I will or won't develop it. But the fear of it has taken a heavy toll on my life, a very heavy toll.

I am doing much better these days not worrying and getting regular skin checks.

Thank you for sharing your story and that of Jake Demand.
 
I don't mean to be facetious, but the death rate in the U.S. at home is 100%. We all die, the question is when.
My chance of dying in Iraq is near 0. Unless I am hijacked by some Iraqis, it is 0.
The army doesn't want me ....I am too old...I hope.
I don't think that using % make sense here.
The issue is really when, where and how we die....and whether death will come earlier or later.
 
Satori said:
The folks out there fighting, killing, and dying in it work for (and are paid by) the folks that don't. They have every right to comment on it. Whether you wish to listen to them or not is your business, but the folks that serve don't have a choice in it. They signed that right away when they enlisted. Military service does not begin and end at free college.

Not angry, not looking for a fight, but I want to make a counterpoint with a similar level of intensity as your point. This is a tricky issue, Dave. ;) We're all volunteers here; I've never met a serviceman (or woman) who had the recruiter put a gun to their head. If they didn't want to fight, they really picked the wrong line of work...you know what I mean?

The folks that got yanked back in due to their obligatory 8-year commitment...well, I feel worse for them, but this should've been explained to them before they signed the dotted line. If it was and they forgot it, I feel for them. (They don't make a big deal out of it either..."Yeah, you can be called back but that would only happen in WWIII" was how it was explained to me.) If it was not explained to them, that's criminal and should absolve them from any further obligations. For those of us who had loopholes exploited in order to retain them (i.e. me) it's nothing we're not used to. You roll with the punches and you keep on keeping on. Everyone gets out eventually...even me. :D
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I usually don't open my big yap on the forums. I'm more of a lurker I guess but I have to say Right On! satori :thumbup:

When we stand up at the Induction Center and take the oath to "serve and defend our country" I didn't here any little caveat "oh except if you go into harms way". and like you, nobody put a gun to my head either. You know it going in.

I pray for our sons & daughters over there. And wish it didn't have to be. You can argue the political points up, down and sideways. Its not going to change a thing.
Somebody once said "old men make the wars, young ones fight & die in them"

I guess it's been that way since time began.

My feeling is that we should support the people currently in charge of this mess(whatever party it is) so hopefully, we can bring our love ones home as quickly as possibe.

Lets' get there, get the job done and get home.

As larry the cable guys says "lets get r done"

Mark T.
 
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