OT: What firearms need no permit?

Daniel Koster

Daniel Koster

www.kosterknives.com
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Oct 18, 2001
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Rusty - you might be best to answer this question.

A few threads I've been reading lately seem to allude that there are firearms that don't need a permit to own/operate.

What are the rules about this?

Are the published anywhere online?

Are there any State laws that might override the Federal laws?


Just curious...

Dan
 
Dan, black powder guns and antique firearms, 1800's are excempt from Federal licensing. They are however still regulated by local authority and laws,i.e. where you can shoot, how to "carry and of course they are weapons in a court of law. Just some words of experience talking.;)

Call your local police or ATF. There is a wbb site, www.packing.org that has allot of info. Good luck.
 
Generally pre-1899 firearms are "non-guns" in the eyes of the federal law. State laws may (and in P-R-of-Maryland, probably do) vary. In a contact with law enforcement, I would not expect the manufacture date of the firearm to positively affect the outcome. I.e., you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.

At the federal level except for full-autos and other specialized items, there is no permit needed to own or operate. State laws have all the restrictions, and of course vary considerably. Here in Texas there are no permits, registration, whatever, needed for long guns at all, even to carry loaded in public. Handguns require a permit for carry in public but nothing else.

From this site MD AR15 Site I can see that MD has some very onerous laws. That site also has links to some others addressing MD law.
 
To the best of my knowledge there is no state in the Union that requires a permit for rifles and shotguns, or even for handguns for that matter. You need a permit for automatic weapons and to carry a concealed handgun. When you purchase any firearm the dealer will run a background check on you and you will have to sit out a waiting period of about tne days, but then it's yours, no permit or registration required. That's the way I understand it to be in Pennsylvania, I believe most states except for California are similar.
 
Is it clear yet, that I have never owned a gun? :rolleyes:


I guess I'm confused. What's the big deal, then? Is it only about whether or not you can carry it in public?

I know a few guys who make black powder rifles by hand and I know they've never run "background checks".

Like I said, I'm sure I have muddled the water very badly...

I need some help understanding the laws, restrictions, etc.


I've looked around the links posted above - and it's only making it worse...:confused:
 
Pen -
Going through packing.org is tedious, but most of the information you want is there, either in the state sections or in lins off of them (state FAQs, firearms laws posted by the state itself, etc.)

The short form is this - some states require a permit to purchase (Illinois). Most merely adhere to the federal background check required when you purchase any modern gun from a dealer. Black powder guns and certain older cartridge guns are considered "Curios and Relics", and have fallen out of the federal scrutiny.

Carry licenses or permits vary from state to state. Kentucky isuues a license for Concealed Carry of Deadly Weapons. They license the individual, and not the gun. Many states issue a license to carry a concealed firearm..ONLY a concealed firearm. Some states issue a PERMIT to carry a specific concealed firearm, and require that you register that gun on the permit and ONLY that gun. The legal difference between permits and licenses is a can of worms in itself. The difference between a firearms permit/license and a permit/license for concealed WEAPONS is another sticky point. Kentucky holds out receprocity to any legally issued permit/license so long as the carrier is 21 or over. Several states have refused to honor Kentucky licenses because they allow "deadly weapons". Even though my license allows this, IN Kentucky, a carrier is subject to the laws of the state he is traveling through.

The only individual firearms requiring licensing are Class III - full auto, sawed-offs, and silenced weapons. Eventhen, some states permit their sale and possession if the federal checks and taxes ($200 for each transfer of ownership) and some states forbid sale or possession.

If this has added to your confusion, take heart :rolleyes: It only scratches the surface.

The lingering question is, "What sort of politician or police officer would fear an HONEST man or woman with a gun?"....Sorta answers itself, don't it?
 
Like Roadrunner said. In PA you can own anything but full auto with no permit, but there is a waiting period on handguns. Full auto requires a special permit all together. If you want to carry something then you will need a carry permit which you apply for at the local sherrifs office. In PA a carry permit allows you to take a gun home the day you buy it without the waiting period. They already backround checked you to get the permit. I believe that in PA you have to carry concealed, no open carry. I think some states allow open carry with no permit.
 
To sum it up Dan, no permit is needed to purchase a black powder firearm.

Federal registration not applicable either for black powder firearm.

Some states may require registration not a permit.

You can always make a trip to a local gunshop, I'm sure they will tell you everything you need to know. Good luck.;)
 
Weapons laws in general are hard to get a good grasp on. My personal nightmare is travel - when you cross borders, the rules change and something legal changes to a felony. That's actually what scares me most - the long-term repercussions of being convicted for a felony (restrictions on voting, certain types of employment, etc.)

Anyway, something actually useful to contribute to this discussion: You might want to find a local firearms dealer and chew his/her ear for a while. The good ones are pretty knowledgeable, at least for the regs they have to follow.
 
When I lived in Chicago, the City Council passed an ordinance requiring registration of each gun, alone with Firearms Owners I. D. required by the state. I had two long guns, two handguns. Each had to be RE-registered at the City Clerks office (er...every 2 (or 5?) years.

I was a Firearms Safety Instructor at the time, and wanted to replace an old German pistol(Ortgies) with a reliable revolver, figuring same number of handguns, fewer rounds in the revolver, about the same caliber.

Nope. Once out, never in. No New Handguns.

I believe it was a grand-fathered legislation, so since I moved out of Chicago, I cannot bring My Wisconsin shotguns with me if I move back to the city.

Bill? If I recall correctly, an illegally modified long-gun can NOT be possessed (except by licensed collectors, Some Feds, and of course, criminals.) The Bureau of Alchohol, Tobacco, and Firearms is humorless. Stay off their radar.

In Wisconsin, I believe an 18 inch barrel is the minimum length...from begining of chamber to barrel's end.


Happy Trails.
 
Originally posted by Bill Martino
Good help and thanks.

Do you need a permit for a sawed off shotgun?
Click to expand...

I think you need an ATF $200 tax stamp. If you actually made the sawed off shotgun, well, now you are in the same league with Randy Weaver (remember Ruby Ridge?) and are subject to having your wife and child shot and killed. :mad:
 
yikes...! :eek:

Actually, the question arises because - as some of you may have figured out already - I like to take old things and breathe new life into them.

I've done furniture, musial instruments, knives/khukuris, appliances, and many more.

A natural progression on this line leads me to old firearms which I have admired for a long time.

Bruce Bump builda pistol-folders that are just incredible. He told me there's no regulations governing the purchase/resale/owning/operating of his lil' shooters, so that got me thinking.

I would love to tear apart an old flintlock, figure it out and put it back together. I figure I'll get around to this someday, so I'm in no rush. Just got prompted by Rusty's comments on another thread.


Bill - I have no need for a sawed-off shotgun. I have a box full of khukuris. ;)

:eek: :D
 
A sawed off shotgun falls under SBS(Short Barreled Shotgun) or AOW(Any Other Weapon), and some are even registered as DD(Destructive Device). IN my very limited experience, the sawed off shotgun is one of the most complicated of the Class 3(full auto, explosives, short barreled rifles and shotguns, knifeguns, all the fun toys) weapons.
 
the columnist, Carl Rowland (sp?), who advocated no handgun ownership, USED a handgun on a home-invader at his place? Apparently, he only advocated it for other people.


Edited for correction, and quote from article:

Syndicated columnist Carl Rowan, who last week wounded an intruder who had taken a dip in his swimming pool, said he was forced to shoot the young man in self-defense before the police arrived. The U.S. Attorney's Office said yesterday that Mr. Rowan will not be charged with assault. Instead, prosecutors reinstated charges of unlawful entry against two of the intruders. The U.S. Attorney's office said it would let the District of Columbia authorities decide whether Mr. Rowan should be charged with possession of an unregistered firearm.

Many people charged Mr. Rowan with hypocrisy because he has been a longtime advocate of strict gun control. In a 1981column he advocated "a law that says anyone found in possession of a handgun except a legitimate officer of the law goes to jail -- period." In 1985 he called for "a complete and universal federal ban on the sale, manufacture, importation and possession of a handgun (except for authorized police and military personnel)."

I AM not pushing an agenda. Just correcting an error)
 
Dunno about what state, but I remember that....

Nicely illustrates what many of these people think:

Since firearms are equalizers, only the "more equal" should be allowed access to them.
 
There is a federal exemption law for traveling between states if you #1 are in continuous travel, #2 the gun is legal in originating and end state of trip.

California has changed drastically. I don't know if you requre a permit, but must buy from approved "safe" list, must wait X number of days or weeks, have a backgtround check done, and a handgun must be registered.

On the other hand in Nevada, I can walk into a gunshop, point to a gun in the case, look it over, hand over money and sales tax, fill out the federal yellow sheet ( #4473 ), and either a) pay $15 bucks for the dealer to do a atate criminal check by phone which normally takes 5 minutes or less, or b) show that I've already been checked out at a higher standard by producing a CCW permit. Under b) on a slow day in the shop, with a dealer I know, it takes 3 minutes or less from the time I decide to buy.

In California, my uncle went to renew his license and found his carry gun was no longer on the approved list and had to buy a new gun that was on the list.
 
Pen:

I don't need a sawed-off either, but with a bunch of khukuris on hand I just may need one of those Martini rifles from Nepal to display with them, depending on whether/when they hit the market and how much they go for. It is my understanding that the .45 versions can be sent through the mail to anyone in the US without any paperwork. Don't know about the .303s though.
 
Dan, there are some excellent muzzleloader kit guns available. Might be a cheaper route to go than actually acquiring a vintage weapon. It would have the added advantage of being a serviceable shooter without fear of damaging/de-valueing the piece. If ya ain't never touched off a round from an "old timey smoke pole", it's something I highly recommend. Just be very careful with storage and handling of black powder, it's very unforgiving of being too casually treated.:eek:

Sarge
 
Sawed off shotguns, like a double barrel stagecoach model, a Mad Max style pistol, or a pump with a barrel length shorter than 18", need a $5 Federal tax stamp.

BTW: Last time I checked, flamethrowers weren't legally firearms and there were few, if any regulations against them anywhere in the US. Not that conceilable, but few things invoke close range fear like getting shot at with a flamethrower. :D
 
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