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Very nice.
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Other knives?
- Thread starter kamagong
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:
Federico mine doesn't appear to have been etched, but I know looks can be deceiveing.
Mine looks as if one of the persons before me that kept it has taken a fine sandpaper to it to remove the black coating and quit before they got it all off.
But at least not all of the original finish is gone.
And mine is the only one I've ever seen with an engraved blade.
What do you think about etching it with ferric chloride? And should mine even be etched?
And how do you etch your's.
It would take a long pan to hold the etchent if the blade was laid in it as you would do the smaller Keris shown on Paul's Keris pages.
As for getting the sword for $20.00 the people didn't know what they had and I didn't tell.
I also got a leaf shaped blade with a thin wooden sheath covered with very thin leather from the same antique store. The handle looks as if it were wrapped with some kind f string and then a coating was put on it. And the sheath appears to have been sewn with braided grass. I have ever figured out where it is from.
I bought them in the late 70's.
Federico mine doesn't appear to have been etched, but I know looks can be deceiveing.
Mine looks as if one of the persons before me that kept it has taken a fine sandpaper to it to remove the black coating and quit before they got it all off.
But at least not all of the original finish is gone.And mine is the only one I've ever seen with an engraved blade.
What do you think about etching it with ferric chloride? And should mine even be etched?
And how do you etch your's.
It would take a long pan to hold the etchent if the blade was laid in it as you would do the smaller Keris shown on Paul's Keris pages.
As for getting the sword for $20.00 the people didn't know what they had and I didn't tell.
I also got a leaf shaped blade with a thin wooden sheath covered with very thin leather from the same antique store. The handle looks as if it were wrapped with some kind f string and then a coating was put on it. And the sheath appears to have been sewn with braided grass. I have ever figured out where it is from.
I bought them in the late 70's.
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Well whether or not to etch a kris is a personal thing. On one hand it may devalue the blade as many western collectors do not like any alteration to be done to any part of the blade. However a moro (Im using this term loosely as since I do understand the perjurative connotations associated with it)would never let their blade fall into such disreapair and would keep their in a good working condition with a keen edge and a good etch. I personally etch because I would not dare disrespect the blades by not caring for them and also I know that I will never sell anything in my collection. I am not concerned with monetary value as much as I am with keeping with cultural tradition. So I guess in essence its really up to you. Are collecting blades in order to have some kind of monetary investment, or are you a caretaker of the blade who wishes to keep with tradition and respect the spirit contained within?
As for whether ferric chloride is a good etchant I would have to say its what I use now for my moro swords. Traditionally in the Philippines the etch is done using various citrus fruits but I have been quite happy with ferric chloride in its ease of use.
I normally start out cleaning the blade by removing all rust using diluted lemon juice. Then if the blade is in poor shape with many pits I will try lessening them with the various grades of sandpaper. However I will not try to remove all the pits or chips. A few add character, but too many just hide the damascene patterns. After sanding or in cases in which sanding is not needed I polish using a metal polish. Next I degrease the blade using rubbing alcohol, another route is to use an ash and water mixture which would be more traditional and works well but its taken me a while to save enough ash to be used properly. Now traditionally a moro would leave their blade out in the hot sun, but since I live Minnesota hot sunny days are a rarity so I use a blow dryer to warm the blade. Finally when the blade is warm I stand it up and brush on the etchant. I prefer standing the blade up versus immersing it in a tray of etchant since it saves on etchant. The thing is just to keep the blade properly moist with etchant. Its not quite as hard to do as it may seem at first and after about 15 minutes depending on the coloration Im finished. Now the proper coloring of moro blades is something that one must develop an eye for. The two kris I have pictured were etched a while back so are in need of a re-etching. I normally like them slightly darker. It is said that moro's prefered the etched blade over the buffed shiny blade so that they would not shine and thereby reveal them in the jungle.
As for a substitute for the lime arsenic solution used in Malay keris there realistically is no proper substitute that will give the proper color contrasts. There are people out there that will patinate keris for you, and there is always the option of going to Indonesia and attending a keris etching ceremony (though this is quite a spendy trip just to clean up an old blade
). Cleaning very rusty/dirty keris with diluted lemon juice can really help its appearance, but again to get the proper blacks there really is no substitute for the traditional method.
If you could post any pictures of your kris it would make it much easier to determine the best route to take. Again I must say to ask around the ethnographic edge forum. There are many much more qualified and learned keris collectors there. Also here are a few names of people that may be able to help you: Cecil Quirino of Kris Cutlery is probably the most knowledgeable person in the US on keris and kris, Philip Tom of Seven Stars Trading company is a generally good person and experienced antique restorer, and Erik Farrow of Eriksedge.com is an outstanding gentleman who is very knowledgeable and generally nice guy these two kris that I have posted were purchased from him.
Well Im sorry I couldnt be of more help, but I still consider myself a novice in the realm of keris/kris collecting. Please come over to the ethnographic edge forum as there are many more qualified people than I, or ask any of the people I have listed for help. They may have other options that I cannot think of.
As for whether ferric chloride is a good etchant I would have to say its what I use now for my moro swords. Traditionally in the Philippines the etch is done using various citrus fruits but I have been quite happy with ferric chloride in its ease of use.
I normally start out cleaning the blade by removing all rust using diluted lemon juice. Then if the blade is in poor shape with many pits I will try lessening them with the various grades of sandpaper. However I will not try to remove all the pits or chips. A few add character, but too many just hide the damascene patterns. After sanding or in cases in which sanding is not needed I polish using a metal polish. Next I degrease the blade using rubbing alcohol, another route is to use an ash and water mixture which would be more traditional and works well but its taken me a while to save enough ash to be used properly. Now traditionally a moro would leave their blade out in the hot sun, but since I live Minnesota hot sunny days are a rarity so I use a blow dryer to warm the blade. Finally when the blade is warm I stand it up and brush on the etchant. I prefer standing the blade up versus immersing it in a tray of etchant since it saves on etchant. The thing is just to keep the blade properly moist with etchant. Its not quite as hard to do as it may seem at first and after about 15 minutes depending on the coloration Im finished. Now the proper coloring of moro blades is something that one must develop an eye for. The two kris I have pictured were etched a while back so are in need of a re-etching. I normally like them slightly darker. It is said that moro's prefered the etched blade over the buffed shiny blade so that they would not shine and thereby reveal them in the jungle.
As for a substitute for the lime arsenic solution used in Malay keris there realistically is no proper substitute that will give the proper color contrasts. There are people out there that will patinate keris for you, and there is always the option of going to Indonesia and attending a keris etching ceremony (though this is quite a spendy trip just to clean up an old blade
). Cleaning very rusty/dirty keris with diluted lemon juice can really help its appearance, but again to get the proper blacks there really is no substitute for the traditional method.If you could post any pictures of your kris it would make it much easier to determine the best route to take. Again I must say to ask around the ethnographic edge forum. There are many much more qualified and learned keris collectors there. Also here are a few names of people that may be able to help you: Cecil Quirino of Kris Cutlery is probably the most knowledgeable person in the US on keris and kris, Philip Tom of Seven Stars Trading company is a generally good person and experienced antique restorer, and Erik Farrow of Eriksedge.com is an outstanding gentleman who is very knowledgeable and generally nice guy these two kris that I have posted were purchased from him.
Well Im sorry I couldnt be of more help, but I still consider myself a novice in the realm of keris/kris collecting. Please come over to the ethnographic edge forum as there are many more qualified people than I, or ask any of the people I have listed for help. They may have other options that I cannot think of.
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Good help and thanks.
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The terms "kris" and "Moro" have been used to describe such a variety of weapons and peoples that any general statements about either will bring forward a bunch of exceptions. For example, I've read that the sword kris of the "Philippine" islands of Jolo, Basilan and Mindanao were rarely etched, while a blade from nearby Sabah in the northeast of what we called Borneo might be etched. I've read that some sword handles represent birds or horse hooves, while at least two people have told me that such representation would violate religious beliefs regarding the making of objects in the form of animals.
The best book I've seen on barongs and kris swords is "Moro Swords" by Robert Cato, but I don't really know how accurate it is.
The best book I've seen on barongs and kris swords is "Moro Swords" by Robert Cato, but I don't really know how accurate it is.
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Is indeed the most accurate and encompassing book on moro weaponry out there. There was much time and effort placed into its making as well as consultation with the foremost experts around the world on the subject as well as various moro peoples as well. However there are various other sources that can be used to learn more about these fascinating weapons, but Robert Cato's is the most specific and comprehensive book out there.
As for Sabah Borneo it used to be part of the Sultanate of Sulu until it was sold later on. Many Tausugs still travel and feel strong kinship to the area.
As for the shaping of the pommels yes it does violate islamic law to create depictions of animals, however islam in moro lands was not historically as strict as islam in Arab nations. Only recently has there been a greater rise in fundementalism since more moros are now traveling to Saudi Arabia for education. There are some that are now advocating the destruction and the abandoning of older beliefs that are at odds with strict islamic prescription.
As for Sabah Borneo it used to be part of the Sultanate of Sulu until it was sold later on. Many Tausugs still travel and feel strong kinship to the area.
As for the shaping of the pommels yes it does violate islamic law to create depictions of animals, however islam in moro lands was not historically as strict as islam in Arab nations. Only recently has there been a greater rise in fundementalism since more moros are now traveling to Saudi Arabia for education. There are some that are now advocating the destruction and the abandoning of older beliefs that are at odds with strict islamic prescription.
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More interesting stuff and thanks.
Fred,
Glad to see you over here!
Re: Moro extremism, it should be noted that alot of the developmental money for infrastructure and other basic needs has come from Libya and other governments the US likes to label as "supporting terrorism." In a way, it is also an indictment of the Philippine government and the West, because their neglect has created a void that extremists have moved to fill.
In a way, I sympathize with the Moro cause: They are not really Filipino in that they were independent during the entire Spanish occupation, are Muslim, and have been the traditional enemies of their northern neighbors. Then again, I would hate to see the establishment of another fundamentalist regime as exists now in Afghanistan.
Glad to see you over here!
Re: Moro extremism, it should be noted that alot of the developmental money for infrastructure and other basic needs has come from Libya and other governments the US likes to label as "supporting terrorism." In a way, it is also an indictment of the Philippine government and the West, because their neglect has created a void that extremists have moved to fill.
In a way, I sympathize with the Moro cause: They are not really Filipino in that they were independent during the entire Spanish occupation, are Muslim, and have been the traditional enemies of their northern neighbors. Then again, I would hate to see the establishment of another fundamentalist regime as exists now in Afghanistan.
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I think the balisong is the best design for a folding knife available. It is both efficient and extremely stong (as long as a solid grip is maintained on the handles) at securing the blade. Correct me if I'm wrong... Seem to recall one difference between a Manila and a Batangaas style balisong was the placement of the closure latch. One style prefered it on one handle versus the other. This becomes real important when openning the knife, with regards to knowing whether the blade was swinging toward you edge or spine first. Heaven forbid you should be accustomed to one style and pick up the other unknowingly I would be carrying one now if not for them being outlawed in this oversized cat litterbox of a state!
On the larger side, but still with a concealed carry option is the Wally Hayes style combat wakizashi. Japanese short sword, approximately 20" in length. The ONE I'd take it to a burglar with if no firearm was available. SWEEEEEEEEEEET
I would be carrying one now if not for them being outlawed in this oversized cat litterbox of a state!On the larger side, but still with a concealed carry option is the Wally Hayes style combat wakizashi. Japanese short sword, approximately 20" in length. The ONE I'd take it to a burglar with if no firearm was available. SWEEEEEEEEEEET
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Thanks for input.
I hope to own atleast one example of each thing mentioned at some point in my life. My only addition would be an Northern European Sax.
I have to agree with the preference to the traditional tanto styles. It just seems to me that Cold Steel came out with a "tanto" with a chisel point, and now everyone's calling it a tanto point! I'd take a handforged hira-zukuri tanto, in traditional fittings any day. <i>If they were the same price, who wouldn't????</i>
Bob
I have to agree with the preference to the traditional tanto styles. It just seems to me that Cold Steel came out with a "tanto" with a chisel point, and now everyone's calling it a tanto point! I'd take a handforged hira-zukuri tanto, in traditional fittings any day.
<i>If they were the same price, who wouldn't????</i>Bob
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...Yes
when I saw this <img src = "http://www.bladeart.com/swords/john_greco/greco_khukri.jpg"> It's kinda neat, it's a John Greco <i>kukri</i> I'd rather have a Gelbu Special, and a BAS though.
Here's the site. http://www.bladeart.com/swords/john_greco/john greco.htm
Bob
Here's the site. http://www.bladeart.com/swords/john_greco/john greco.htm
Bob
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Thanks for pix and link.
Wow! Lots of interesting knives out there!
My other favorites are:
1) Bayonets from the early 1900's. They're really more like short swords. I have an Argentine 1909 and a British 1903 (for the Enfield No 1). Really neat blades, and inexpensive enough to sharpen for a 20" around the house knife!
2) Swedish Mora knives. Inexpensive but sturdy, and man are they sharp!
3) Opinel folder, same as above.
4) This one's a want to have: Katana style sword. I'll never be able to justify an original, so probably a good replica.
5) I have this old knife I got in the late 70's. Kind of khukuri shaped, but more pointed, and totally flat on the left side. The right side has the bevel. There's no cho, and it's also quite soft, as I recall. The handle is spike tanged, in the villager style (it doesn't go all the way through), rounded, with a slightly larger, carved bitt. The sheath is thin wood, originally held together with some jute-like twine. If any of you have any idea what this might be or where it's from, I'd love to hear it!
Patrick
My other favorites are:
1) Bayonets from the early 1900's. They're really more like short swords. I have an Argentine 1909 and a British 1903 (for the Enfield No 1). Really neat blades, and inexpensive enough to sharpen for a 20" around the house knife!
2) Swedish Mora knives. Inexpensive but sturdy, and man are they sharp!
3) Opinel folder, same as above.
4) This one's a want to have: Katana style sword. I'll never be able to justify an original, so probably a good replica.
5) I have this old knife I got in the late 70's. Kind of khukuri shaped, but more pointed, and totally flat on the left side. The right side has the bevel. There's no cho, and it's also quite soft, as I recall. The handle is spike tanged, in the villager style (it doesn't go all the way through), rounded, with a slightly larger, carved bitt. The sheath is thin wood, originally held together with some jute-like twine. If any of you have any idea what this might be or where it's from, I'd love to hear it!
Patrick
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More good stuff and thanks.
