Our *Handmade Knife* world has changed...

How about a section of the Forum for guys or gals like ebbtide and others have referenced; the folks that bring a lot of value and knowledge and gravitas? It wouldn't cost anything extra to have access to that "room" but the membership is voted in or invited in based on the value and quality of their contributions. So you would have the master smiths and well known collectors and others like Coop who have serious content and commentary to add. If one or more of those members recognizes a person in another part of the site who is consistently bringing value and intelligent commentary, those members can contact the appropriate Mods who would extend an invitation to the "private lounge". People who do not uphold the qualities of that room can be voted out and lose their access.

Would something like that entice some of the folks who have left to come back?
 
The Gorged In Fire show has been a mixed bag for the knife world.

I very much enjoy the show for entertainment value. But very often, the best knifemakers fo out early, and then hobby makers and beginners move on because their overly thick, brick of a knife holds up better to chopping bricks, or batonning 30 pound steel nuts....etc..

When you see a master smith turn in a lovely piece, snd then get sent home because his knife is not a rear looking turd, it is distressing.

I have known a good number of contestants who win, even repeated wins. And some are great makers.

I will also say, that I see some of the FIF makers selling knives that just look terrible. Poor finish poor fit, knives that would embarrass a quality maker.... being on forged in fire....even winning, does not mean the maker is necessarily a great knife maker.

I am friends/have met some of the forged in fire winners, and knew their work before the show.

Many of the makers on that show do make beautiful knives, especially when not under a 3 hour time constraints with surprise obstacles etc..

There is no accounting for good taste in knives. I've learned that poor designs will often have fans based on persona of maker, tacti-cool factor, or hype.
 
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I think the bigger question is "What is the incentive to post here?" for well established professional makers. To illustrate, recently in Shop Talk there was a thread about protecting intellectual property. I posted some information straight from one of the biggest makers in the world, with decades of full time experience and worldwide recognition.

But people in the thread apparently didn't believe the info I relayed directly from him and his wife, even though it was accurate and based on nearly thirty years of experience in that particular case (as well as legal documentation from their lawyer and the USPTO). Because posters in the thread couldn't find the info they wanted on the internet, they refused to believe it, and insulted me and called me names.:rolleyes:o_O:confused:

When I explained this to the maker/his wife, they had a good laugh and continued on with their business. Imagine doing something every day professionally, then taking time to come post it on some forum, and having a bunch of internet geniuses tell you that you don't know what you're talking about. OK, sure thing. I have heard very similar experiences from several makers with easily recognizable names. Frankly, I don't blame them. Better things to do.:)


Sam:thumbsup:
i4Marc said:
How about a section of the Forum for guys or gals like ebbtide and others have referenced; the folks that bring a lot of value and knowledge and gravitas? It wouldn't cost anything extra to have access to that "room" but the membership is voted in or invited in based on the value and quality of their contributions. So you would have the master smiths and well known collectors and others like Coop who have serious content and commentary to add. If one or more of those members recognizes a person in another part of the site who is consistently bringing value and intelligent commentary, those members can contact the appropriate Mods who would extend an invitation to the "private lounge". People who do not uphold the qualities of that room can be voted out and lose their access.

Would something like that entice some of the folks who have left to come back?
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Sam, that is why I suggested an "invitation only" room where at least in theory, members with the experience, knowledge and wisdom you describe would not be subjected to the ignorance and poor manners of the general public. It was just a thought. But what do I know? I'm "general public". :D
 
Sorry my friend, I didn't mean to be critical. Just a different perspective, and I am too blunt sometimes.:) Besides, if you're "general public," then I'm up in the nosebleed section.:)

Sam:thumbsup:


i4Marc said:
Sam, that is why I suggested an "invitation only" room where at least in theory, members with the experience, knowledge and wisdom you describe would not be subjected to the ignorance and poor manners of the general public. It was just a thought. But what do I know? I'm "general public". :D
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I have definitely seen great makers who contribute a lot of knowledge be chased away by rude, contrary members here.

I am a very new "hobby" baby maker (I've finished 4 knives...I have my first forged knife in progress currently).

I just got a grinder at Christmas, and got a forge this summer.


I've wanted to make knoves since I was a child. I had a family member who would bring his knife roll to every reunion (Custom Maker Glenn Hornby). I dreamed of learning to make knives from him......

He died the year I finished high school...so I never got a chance to learn from him.



I've learned a lot of valuable information from this forum over the years.

I've made some real friendships over the years, including with members who are also custom makers.

I am saddened whenever I see a maker leave due to poor interactions here.

SharpCoop, we don't know each other, but I sure have enjoyed all the information and great photos you have shared over the years here!
 
i4Marc said:
How about a section of the Forum for guys or gals like ebbtide and others have referenced; the folks that bring a lot of value and knowledge and gravitas? It wouldn't cost anything extra to have access to that "room" but the membership is voted in or invited in based on the value and quality of their contributions......
Would something like that entice some of the folks who have left to come back?
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I've moderated a private, invitation only knife/outdoors forum for the last 18-20 years. It's gone thru 3 owners and name changes.
We had our share of big name knife makers and knife magazine writers, and a good number of the old hands from bf as well.
The other social media venues put a huge dent in that forum's membership and participation as well. FB, I think, is the main culprit. Once that took off it was the big drop in forum activity over all.
Like the walmart of social media. Why sign on to 3 different forums when you can 'see' the same folks in one place and family too. Members drifted away. Kept in touch at the fb, but the forum got ignored.
Add to that, you have people that are polite and respectful on a forum and when you see them go rabid or act out on fb, well that puts a cramp in things at the forum as well.

I think the horse is out of the barn and its just a different world.
Ya can't go home, the guy said...
 
I joined BF after the Forged in fire craze really took off. I was not inspired by FIF to make knives funnily enough - I started out teaching myself how to forge decorative hooks and sconces for the many sisters and sister-in-laws, aunt's, my mom, wife, etc in my life in a horribly built exhaust pipe 'forge' I had made.

Anyways, one day I got the brilliant idea of turning an Allen key into a knife. It sucked so bad in every way that it led me to start googling and youtubing which eventually led me here. I spent a solid month or more just reading stickies and old threads. My progress rapidly accelerated from thick soft hatchet knives to knife shaped objects that were still too thick but at least cut. Now, 2 or 3 years later I can definitely make something with an ok finish that can cut well.

Truly, I do not know if I would've gotten to where I am today without BF and the collective knowledge here. I'm still, of course, a rank amateur but I love seeing what guys are turning out. The glass ceiling for this craft is so, so high and I love that. I've always got my eye out for that little trick that I don't know yet.

On the rare occasion I post a picture in what's going on in your shop? - I'm just trying to show my people that I'm still grinding away and trying to learn.

That being said even since I joined I have definitely noticed less overall quality discussion in shop talk as time has rolled on. I'm going to break away from everyone here though a bit... I think that is perpetuated by 4 groups of people:
A) Over-eager newbies who just want to participate (I have fit this group a number of times)
B) Clear trolls/contrarions/jerks who just want to bother others
C) Experienced makers who sometimes can't seem to handle either of the above groups (and obviously I don't blame then sometimes lol)
D) The shameless self promoters who are genuinely only interested in showing off and nothing else.

What is the solution? Eh, just wait it out. Although forums have dropped off in popularity... There will always be those who seek more than the Facebook like competitions and know-it-all's who would criticize Jesus - in the flesh - for his choice of attire. Forums will always have their place.

Forged in fire won't be forever either and when it goes, so too will many of the hatchet knife makers, who arose from it. But I'm sure the community would have picked up a good many who genuinely took up the craft too.

For those ogenuinely interested in the finer details of knife making - we will be fighting off the idea that every knife should be able to cut through an enormous block of ice or cow femur for a long, long time. But is that really anything new? Myths have followed knives for as long as they have been made.

The craft will survive and so too will the knowledge of makers past and present.
 
I see the shop talk subforum mentioned a few times here. Shop talk is one of the main problem areas of this forum. I watched a few great makers leave because of that place. Eventually I stopped posting there as well.

It was overrun with "experts" (maybe they are, maybe they aren't) who answer every single question with authority, often arguing with known and respected established makers, yet a single example of their work can't be found.

I have a hard time with someone acting like they know all the answers but either can't or won't post pictures to prove they know what they're talking about......even when directly asked for pictures of finished knives. The leader over there is as guilty as any, and has allowed that type of environment to exist for far too long and it has chased many good makers from there and even off bladeforums entirely.
 
I think the problems allenkey and John describe can usually be seen in posts that start with the following four words......"I'm no expert, but".........

I don't want to be too hard on those folks because I have done it once or twice as well. But I bite my tongue these days whenever possible. If you see a question on a topic but you are NOT an expert on the subject, fear not, an actual expert will be by shortly. Why the rush to fill space as a placeholder until someone more knowledgeable checks in? Just wait. But a lot of the problems described above can be moderated by a referee of sorts. Let's call this person...oh, I don't know....a MODERATOR! The Mods should be on top of issues like that. Keeping people in check and blocking trouble-makers is why they are there. They shouldn't make an appearance three or four pages into a cat fight. They should keep newbies and trolls on a short leash and lay down cover fire for more valuable members. Look at real life examples. When the police stand down and chaos runs wild in the streets, people flee those places in droves. Hmmm, didn't see THAT coming.

I apologize if we have deviated from Coop's OP but the question remains. How do we get the good guys to come back? Has that ship sailed for good?
 
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To the original post.....I think we are living in a new world of instant gratification, shorter attention spans, less engagement and the latest and greatest of everything available almost immediately.

Writing skills, conversation skills, critical thinking and actual social interaction skills are deteriorating quickly. In honesty, I don't see that ever returning to the days of yesterday.

If something becomes too involved or time intensive, for either the maker or the buyer, either party can move along to the next easier thing.

That's not true of everyone but it seems to be the continuing trend. This forum has done better than some but I think its fallen victim in part to some of these things.
 
John

IMO, you have it Exactly right- social interaction skills are now basically non-existent for many of the "<40" crowd....although I realize that is a generalization. Add that to the minuscule attention span spawned by 24/7 news/sports/commentary TV channels, amplified by social media fake "friends and followers" and you have the current state of affairs....

I do find Instagram interesting for a superficial peek at what's going on, and can see the allure to knife makers seeking new clients.
I think forums such as this will probably continue to have a place going forward but numbers will continue to go down. I'm not sure a "curated" sub-forum is the answer - "who watches the watchers"? (skipped the Latin original:))

I'm very appreciative of those who DO continue to post helpful info, including Devin and Larrin. I enjoy "newbie enthusiasm" as well, as long as it is tempered by the ability to listen once in awhile:D

Bill
 
GREAT answers from all. Thank you.

Bottom line: It's complicated.

I don't agree with yet another private arena. In theory=Good. In practice=devolve. Just add time and commentary. HA!

Let's face it the 'good ol' days' LOVED a knife fight. Contrary opinions drew out the popcorn and built general interest. Some declared that challenge was the lifeblood of a forum. Others said Kumbaya is boring.

I've heard the grousing of Shoptalk. Like all positions of office, a reelection term limit might help.

FB, IG, and Youtube are competitors for our time. Who's more efficient?

BTW: I WILL NOT spend time on FB save to post my client's work on my SBC page and run. I can't look at my own personal feed. My soft ears cannot take the blood pressure increase from the Political rantings. I have too many 'friends' who think differently. (I have stopped accepting any friend requests about 4 years ago. I have 60 pending. Sorry, guys!)

One of Ruiz's Four Agreements is: 'Don't take anything personally'. I find it the hardest. So did the maker's who left.

I have always gone by the standard that at the other end of every keyboard is a human being. Treat them accordingly.

Keystrokes will ALWAYS be misinterpreted. o_O

I'll say it again: It's complicated.
 
I also absent my self from Facebook.

I've found my recent FB has been mostly political garbage. The same 10 or so people not posting political self important drivel, are posting the same vapid things about them selves again, and again...
 
SharpByCoop said:
Best job admin? Moderators are GREAT! Admin? Ummmmm.
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I used administration to be more encompassing to include mods as well sorry if that wasn't clear. It would also encompass the selection of mods by next level up and so on till you hit the top eventually but it comes down more to the day to day administration which is done mostly by mods and super mods.
 
Hey Coop, anyone who has been around a while (but behind the scenes such as myself) knows who Coop is. Thanks for this post. It’s been a great read as I have been thinking this for a while. Where is the best place to spend my time? I started making knives maybe a year before FIF but I have since been on a 4 year hiatus. I’m back now, thankfully. I love the craft. It’s therapeutic. I also hope to be able to make a living at this one day but I’m in no hurry. Thankfully I have a career (machinist) that I love as well and am able to get my creative side out that way too. I just want to meet new folks, make new friends and get my name out there at the same time. But I want to spend my time the best way I can doing those things as well. Time is limited for all of us. Thanks again for your input.
 
Mark Knapp said:
Hey there Coop, I have found through he years that generally people need to bump into a high end knife maker about three times before a knife is bought. A purchase of a luxury item like a custom knife that costs as much as a good used car isn't done lightly. Especially when things are uncertain like now.

What I mean is, a customer will call me on the phone and say, "I saw you at Blade in Atlanta last year, and you were in the "Blade Annual". Then I Googled "Musk ox horn knives" and your name popped up in something you said on "Blade Forums" so I decided to give you a call."

The moral of the story is, (for us) you have to do everything. We have a FB page, IG, a web site, we submit to magazines with you (Thanks to you, we have been in 35 magazines and all but one of the Blade Annuals since something like 2009), we talk and post on Blade Forums and Knife Dogs, we've been to Blade East every year for 15 years as well as some of the other shows, and we have a retail store.

You have to roll with the times. People will flock to every new media outlet that comes along and you have to go with them. It's almost like a full time job. :)
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This is straight up sage wisdom.
 
wow tons of great comments and ideas ! but to the original post, coop said print magazine inclusions still have rewarding impact. its true. his photos are expensive, but after my first magazine inclusion of one of his photos, i sold 7 knives in 9 days. wiped out my website inventory excluding one. that has never happened, i figured it would take 2 years to sell them all. to me that was a worthwhile impact, and i cannot wait to send in another for him to photo. my experience here has been mostly positive. i gobbled up everyones info and techniques. i did not know about youtube back then. all i had was the loveless book. this place was magical. actual famous knife makers giving away their secrets ! all those famous guys left, but i am still here trying to help others in appreciation of them helping me. i have not sold a knife here in a long time, but i still buy a knifemakers subscription. i remember around 2008 i made a post trying to help someone, and i guess i gave the wrong info because a bunch of guys scolded me :rolleyes: after that i made sure that i knew what i was talking about. feeling stupid helped. then around 2010 i posted my first knife and i was mad because several days went by and no one commented on it. i figured it was because i wasnt buddies or pals with all the guys and they didnt know me. then i realized no one commented because it sucked :D it was a piece of junk. i still love this place, with its ups and downs. its like my old neighborhood when i was a kid.
 
john april said:
wow tons of great comments and ideas ! but to the original post, coop said print magazine inclusions still have rewarding impact. its true. his photos are expensive, but after my first magazine inclusion of one of his photos, i sold 7 knives in 9 days. wiped out my website inventory excluding one. that has never happened, i figured it would take 2 years to sell them all. to me that was a worthwhile impact, and i cannot wait to send in another for him to photo. my experience here has been mostly positive. i gobbled up everyones info and techniques. i did not know about youtube back then. all i had was the loveless book. this place was magical. actual famous knife makers giving away their secrets ! all those famous guys left, but i am still here trying to help others in appreciation of them helping me. i have not sold a knife here in a long time, but i still buy a knifemakers subscription. i remember around 2008 i made a post trying to help someone, and i guess i gave the wrong info because a bunch of guys scolded me :rolleyes: after that i made sure that i knew what i was talking about. feeling stupid helped. then around 2010 i posted my first knife and i was mad because several days went by and no one commented on it. i figured it was because i wasnt buddies or pals with all the guys and they didnt know me. then i realized no one commented because it sucked :D it was a piece of junk. i still love this place, with its ups and downs. its like my old neighborhood when i was a kid.
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I just looked at the gallery on your website and you are right, Coop's photos really highlight your work!
I scrolled down and really like some of the saya that you did for your tantos.
(I guess I appreciate them because I have recently struggled with saya myself).

ETA: man that gallery is something to be proud of, some of the take-down pieces wow!
 
I still love the forum and all it encompasses. The history here is incredible and easily searchable. If you want to know something about knives, chances are pretty good you'll find your answers here if you look hard enough for them.
 
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